C'mon let's wake this forum up

[Mary Anne]

Bet it did not work Matt though this one will do it

[Arg]

The point being, MM, that what was once a thrashing is now a fair fight with a few pros and cons either way, model by model.

And that's a long way from the impression given earlier in this thread (not naming names -- 'cos I was one of them ).

- - - Updated - - -

200 posts!

I've nothing to say but wanted to click it over

Wish I brought popcorn.....

I'll keep an eye out for you, Matt, in another 97!

[MissionMan]

The point being, MM, that what was once a thrashing is now a fair fight with a few pros and cons either way, model by model.

And that's a long way from the impression given earlier in this thread (not naming names -- 'cos I was one of them ).

- - - Updated - - -



I'll keep an eye out for you, Matt, in another 97!

Actually you are right in this case. The NX1 mirrorless is the same size and price of a digital SLR so it now has no pros over a DSLR

Can I kindly request that you mirrorless users stop dragging us DSLR users into a mirrorless discussion and keep it to mirrorless.

On the up side, you started a thread which went up to 200 posts. For someone who hasn't posted a picture on Ausphoto yet, that's an impressive feat.

Maybe our next post challenge to match this thread length could be a picture challenge to try show our pictures of animals that we think best portray our perception of what we think Mongo looks like.

[Mary Anne]

Can I kindly request that you mirrorless users stop dragging us DSLR users into a mirrorless discussion and keep it to mirrorless.

On the up side, you started a thread which went up to 200 posts. For someone who hasn't posted a picture on Ausphoto yet, that's an impressive feat.

I Agree On That One

Maybe our next post challenge to match this thread length could be a picture challenge to try show our pictures of animals that we think best portray our perception of what we think Mongo looks like.

The Mind Boggles though I will look forward to it.. Perhaps Lance could enlighten us.

[Arg]

Actually you are right in this case. The NX1 mirrorless is the same size and price of a digital SLR so it now has no pros over a DSLR

7D II's cubic volume (WxHxD) is 40% more than the NX1 and its weight 65% more. By your definition of 'same size', an APSC sensor is the same size as a full frame.

If I 'lol' back at your comment the same way, I might get into trouble.... so I won't .

Can I kindly request that you mirrorless users stop dragging us DSLR users into a mirrorless discussion and keep it to mirrorless.

At no point have I invited a single DSLR user into this thread, let alone 'dragged'. The OP is clear:

Post in this thread if you are into your new wave camera gear, say hi. This thread can be a kind of register of DSLM (i.e. mirrorless) camera photographers.

Yet that friendly invitation has been treated more like a declaration of war since post #3. You, not I, started the put-down comparisons with DSLR in post #9, "it's like pretending your Hyundai is a BMW", then #21, "I recommend mirrorless cameras to people who aren't photo enthusiasts" (i.e. who know nothing about cameras), and #30, "a mirrorless won't match a DSLR for focus speed". Dig, dig, dig.

The first time I made comparison with a DSLR was post #32 where I wrote "DSLM cameras are not yet as good as the best DSLRs (at CAF)". Hardly a troublemaker, eh?

Don't paint me as the bringer of DSLR in this thread, nor as the reason it remains here. Anyway, I answered your request in my post #190, "I think it's okay for an existing mirrorless user to discuss with others how they compare to the current benchmark and market leader (reflex cameras) (where they are catching up, where they are actually better, where they need to improve if they want to win over ever more reflex camera users) purely on the basis of understanding the mirrorless cameras we already own, or encouraging or educating photographers with a genuine interest in acquiring mirrorless cameras as a major part of their gear.".

On the up side, you started a thread which went up to 200 posts. For someone who hasn't posted a picture on Ausphoto yet, that's an impressive feat.

Most of the posts in this thread since the end of page 1 have been by people who apparently don't own a DSLM camera, yet have failed to ask a single genuine question of those who do, but instead, give lectures on their inferiority. I can't honestly say that it has been a pleasure responding to such posts. The equivalent behavior would be me going over to all the DSLR threads and not letting a single point of praise of a camera go uncriticized. Then you'd see some post counts go through the roof -- and I would be promptly banned for being a troublemaker, after being derided for making ignorant comments when not actually owning a DSLR (and resorting to criticizing cameras I don't own by quoting extracts from dpreview reviews). My 35 years of experience with Canon SLR and subsequently DSLR cameras would not save me, I reckon.

- - - Updated - - -

As a matter of interest, and in reply to claims made that I think DSLM cameras are the best, i.e. I am biased, when I am approached by budding photographers who want to 'get into' photography, and asked what can I recommend for them to buy without breaking the bank, I always point them to the Canikon twin lens kits of the 700D/D3300 ilk. Those models are unmatched IMHO in terms of pure image quality per dollar, including lens quality.

This thread is not about 'which is the best'. That answer varies for each person. This thread is about DSLM/mirrorless camera users sharing their appreciation and helping out.

[MissionMan]

7D II's cubic volume (WxHxD) is 40% more than the NX1 and its weight 65% more. By your definition of 'same size', an APSC sensor is the same size as a full frame.

If I 'lol' back at your comment the same way, I might get into trouble.... so I won't .



At no point have I invited a single DSLR user into this thread, let alone 'dragged'. The OP is clear:
Yet that friendly invitation has been treated more like a declaration of war since post #3. You, not I, started the put-down comparisons with DSLR in post #9, "it's like pretending your Hyundai is a BMW", then #21, "I recommend mirrorless cameras to people who aren't photo enthusiasts" (i.e. who know nothing about cameras), and #30, "a mirrorless won't match a DSLR for focus speed". Dig, dig, dig.

The first time I made comparison with a DSLR was post #32 where I wrote "DSLM cameras are not yet as good as the best DSLRs (at CAF)". Hardly a troublemaker, eh?

Don't paint me as the bringer of DSLR in this thread, nor as the reason it remains here. Anyway, I answered your request in my post #190, "I think it's okay for an existing mirrorless user to discuss with others how they compare to the current benchmark and market leader (reflex cameras) (where they are catching up, where they are actually better, where they need to improve if they want to win over ever more reflex camera users) purely on the basis of understanding the mirrorless cameras we already own, or encouraging or educating photographers with a genuine interest in acquiring mirrorless cameras as a major part of their gear.".



Most of the posts in this thread since the end of page 1 have been by people who apparently don't own a DSLM camera, yet have failed to ask a single genuine question of those who do, but instead, give lectures on their inferiority. I can't honestly say that it has been a pleasure responding to such posts. The equivalent behavior would be me going over to all the DSLR threads and not letting a single point of praise of a camera go uncriticized. Then you'd see some post counts go through the roof -- and I would be promptly banned for being a troublemaker, after being derided for making ignorant comments when not actually owning a DSLR (and resorting to criticizing cameras I don't own by quoting extracts from dpreview reviews). My 35 years of experience with Canon SLR and subsequently DSLR cameras would not save me, I reckon.

- - - Updated - - -

As a matter of interest, and in reply to claims made that I think DSLM cameras are the best, i.e. I am biased, when I am approached by budding photographers who want to 'get into' photography, and asked what can I recommend for them to buy without breaking the bank, I always point them to the Canikon twin lens kits of the 700D/D3300 ilk. Those models are unmatched IMHO in terms of pure image quality per dollar, including lens quality.

This thread is not about 'which is the best'. That answer varies for each person. This thread is about DSLM/mirrorless camera users sharing their appreciation and helping out.

Actually, I think you officially declared camera WW3 when you referred to DSLR owners as the equivalent of dinosaurs who were destined for extinction because we couldn't face the reality that mirrorless was better. I only sent in the B52 bombers at that point.

But if intention of the post was about mirrorless appreciation, I haven't seen any photos from you to appreciate mirrorless so it's more of a mirrorless appreciation theory post

Btw, DSLR's go as small as 117x91x69 which is way smaller than the NX1 so it's as large as a DSLR.

[ameerat42]

Let not perceptions/impressions/interpretations lead to a degradation of the rapprochement already ascribed to in this thread.
Easiest way (we all know it): keep it cogent.

[MissionMan]

Let not perceptions/impressions/interpretations lead to a degradation of the rapprochement already ascribed to in this thread.
Easiest way (we all know it): keep it cogent.

Speak English dammit

[ameerat42]

Certainly, sir.

The thrust of my previous post pertains to the paradigm: "keep it on topic".

But this, I am convinced, you have divined, the use of the French loan word - now fully assimilated into
the vernacular generally accepted as "English" - notwithstanding.

[jev]

This thread is not about 'which is the best'. That answer varies for each person. This thread is about DSLM/mirrorless camera users sharing their appreciation and helping out.

Now, that is just strange. I, as a Fuji X-T1 user, won't be able to help out a user from another brand "just because it is a mirrorless camera". The theory behind a mirrorless camera is the same, yet implementations differ from brand to brand just as much as with SLR's, compacts or any other type of camera.

The X-T1 for example differs wildly from most (dare I say "all"? Yes I do - backspace backspace backspace) all dSLR's and mirrorless camera's alike in that it approaches (half-) automatic exposure programs quite differently. On the X-T1, you do not choose between P, S, A or M programs in the X-T1, you just set each parameter of the exposure triangle to a fixed value or "automatic". In combination with its fantastic sensor and great viewfinder, that is what defines the X-T1.

I expect the Sony alpha series for example to much more feel like a dSLR than the X-T1. Apart from size and some minor technical idiosyncrasies, there is little difference with a dSLR in its day-to-day use.

So, helping out? With what?
Appreciation? Sure, I appreciate that it's small and light, that it IQ is outstanding and that it handles like any other professional tool. Don't expect me to stand in line, cheering on mirrorless camera's just "because it's mirrorless" though - that type of fanboy behavior is what people set off in the first place.

[Arg]

Yep, they are just tools. Participation in this thread is entirely voluntary. So is a positive attitude. What do you think of the Fuji?

[swifty]

The X-T1 for example differs wildly from most (dare I say "all"? Yes I do - backspace backspace backspace) all dSLR's and mirrorless camera's alike in that it approaches (half-) automatic exposure programs quite differently. On the X-T1, you do not choose between P, S, A or M programs in the X-T1, you just set each parameter of the exposure triangle to a fixed value or "automatic". In combination with its fantastic sensor and great viewfinder, that is what defines the X-T1.

Side note, not sure if you're aware of the Panasonic L1. I've only used a fixed lens predecessor of the L1 called the LC1 but both operate in much the same way.
I've harped on about how great and intuitive this approach was to setting exposure modes but unfortunately you and I must be amongst the minority who think its a great idea judging by the lacking number of cameras adopting this way of setting exposure.
Of course you do need lenses with aperture rings which rules out a great number of candidates out there.
Encouragingly some Panasonic Leica-branded m43 lenses do come with aperture rings that includes an 'auto' setting. The 15mm f1.7 and 42.5mm f1.2 comes to mind.

[Mark L]

I'll say it again: this thread was meant to be for mirrorless users to chat about their experiences, to help each other to transition from other systems, to be convivial.

Time to start another thread then.
Think carefully about what you call the thread.

[jev]

Side note, not sure if you're aware of the Panasonic L1. I've only used a fixed lens predecessor of the L1 called the LC1 but both operate in much the same way.

I knew it... thanks. I stand corrected!

Of course you do need lenses with aperture rings which rules out a great number of candidates out there.
Encouragingly some Panasonic Leica-branded m43 lenses do come with aperture rings that includes an 'auto' setting. The 15mm f1.7 and 42.5mm f1.2 comes to mind.

That's a specific 4/3 problem I guess. Fuji uses the Fuji X-system where most lenses have aperture rings. For lenses that do not, the system also provides the option to control aperture from the body. For foreign lenses there are mount converters available that contain a manually controlled aperture if necessary. I did play around last weekend with an X-Pro1 with a Leica lens on it using the Fujinon M adapter. It works, but I'm not sure it is worth the trouble. I might invest in a Kipon adapter at some point in the future once they figure out the Fuji AF protocol. It would be great to be able to use the Canon 300/4 or something similar on it.

[ricktas]

This thread is not about 'which is the best'. That answer varies for each person. This thread is about DSLM/mirrorless camera users sharing their appreciation and helping out.

Ok, so give me your advice. I want a mirrorless camera, the best I can get, with a larger sensor, that would be great for street photography. Must have tiltable lcd so I can shoot from the hip, something that works beautifully in low light (dark alleyways), has some waterproofing in case it rains. Of course I am awaiting to see if the rumours of the Nikon FF mirrorless are true, but until they prove to be, which current ones do you recommend, and why?

[ApolloLXII]

Reading through this thread, I feel like I'm kind of hearing the same sort of thing that might have been discussed by a bunch of balloonists when the aeroplane was invented. The flyboys would have said that the era of ballooning was over and that the plane was the way to go while the balloonists would have argued that hot air balloons were still relevant despite the advent of the new technology. While both forms of flight achieved the same thing but in different ways and means, history has shown that both of them are still around today. To mirror or not to mirror? That is the question and will it truly be a far, far better thing that I do with or without a reflective reflex? Aye, there's the rub. So let the slings and arrows of the forum fall wherever they may for one suspects that the questions and comparisons may never be settled betwixt one side or the other.

(On behalf of all long suffering English students everywhere, no apologies to William Shakespeare who most certainly has a lot to answer for!)

[ameerat42]

...history has shown that both of them are still around today...

Not to mention ROCKETRY!! (You're rather self-deprecating, RM).

[arthurking83]

..... So let the slings and arrows of the forum fall wherever they may for one suspects that the questions and comparisons may never be settled betwixt one side or the other.

(On behalf of all long suffering English students everywhere, no apologies to William Shakespeare who most certainly has a lot to answer for!)

I think at some point in the evolution of the EVF, for which mirrorless cameras are totally dependent upon, the pros and cons will eventually peter out into a set of advantages only in favour for the mirrorless designs.
Even the immovable point against EVFs ... in that they need power .. will some day be an insufficient argument against it.
At some point in the future the power requirement for an EVF will diminish to the point of insignificance as technologies are improved and introduced.

There are many arguments for the use of an EVF over an OVF, but at this point I think that while many are happy with the current state of technology, I reckon there are more people that aren't overly convinced by it.
But the points that are in favour of EVFs, which can't be argued against(and hence immovable), such as more accurate autofocus and less complex internal designs .. which should lead to lighter and cheaper cameras, are the ones I look forward too myself .. being a (currently)devout, DSLR worshipping kainotophobe dinosaur.

ps. my fear of change is restricted to the possibility that it's inevitable, but more specifically that it's only going to happen for the sake of itself .. not for the purpose of a greater good.

[swifty]

Ok, so give me your advice. I want a mirrorless camera, the best I can get, with a larger sensor, that would be great for street photography. Must have tiltable lcd so I can shoot from the hip, something that works beautifully in low light (dark alleyways), has some waterproofing in case it rains. Of course I am awaiting to see if the rumours of the Nikon FF mirrorless are true, but until they prove to be, which current ones do you recommend, and why?

Ok.. I know this question wasn't directed at me but here's my input anyways.
I don't think anything exists that fits your criteria exactly but here are a few thoughts.

The only FF mirrorless currently are the Sony FE and the A7s' current top dog for low light but does so at 12MP which as you know is low by today's standards but may/may not be suitable. My main issue with the FE's currently are the native lens choice. The 55/1.8 is very good.
The 35mm/1.4 and 28mm/2 are both just on the horizon but the 35mm looks quite large and negates some of the advantage of going mirrorless. And that's about it for the fast lenses so whilst you gain a stop or so on sensor performance there's less fast native lenses currently available so you may be back to square one.
They all have tilt LCDs but weather sealing is probably not one of its strong points.

The Fuji X-tran APS-C sensors approach FF performance for low light but there are some reports of small penalties such as colour smearing with some converters. This is my main problem since I'm a bit reluctant to change my LR workflow and Adobe's not one of the better RAW converters for X-trans sensors. But I may be tempted to just use the classic chrome jpeg setting. Its the first jpeg I've seen where I've consistently liked the results. But note not all the Fuji's use X-tran sensors.
But some of the advantages are the number of high quality fast primes that are reasonably sized.
My pick currently is the X-T1 which I think Jev owns so I'll leave the details to those with intimate experience with the camera. The LCD does tilt but the X-T1's closer to a DSLR replacement style camera so may be larger than what you want.
X-Pro 2's not likely due until at least later in the year so no point speculating.
The current enthusiast rangefinder style bodied X cameras (X-Pro 1 and X-E2) don't have tilt LCDs but their lower end more recent ones do. The trend seem to be to have the tilt LCDs so perhaps the replacements will get them.

Going smaller and you have the m43's. But I suspect you may feel the sensors are too small.
Advantages are lots of small fast primes which make up a little of the sensor disadvantage.
The higher end Olympus cameras in particularly are very well weather sealed.
There are patents for even faster primes from Olympus but again just speculations at this stage.
They pretty much all have tilt LCDs.

Sony E-mount? Similar issue with lenses.
Samsung NX: watch this space. Samsung's very ambitious but not proven. The NX1 seem to be a specs tour de force but is intended as a DSLR replacement style camera, so probably not what you're after. I'm not very familiar with their lens range.

[I @ M]

The Fuji X-tran APS-C sensors approach FF performance for low light but there are some reports of small penalties such as colour smearing with some converters. This is my main problem since I'm a bit reluctant to change my LR workflow and Adobe's not one of the better RAW converters for X-trans sensors.

The colour smearing is entirely an software issue, you do not see it in ( low iso ) jpegs from the camera. I will attach a couple of 3200 iso jpegs from the camera, no after the shot processing other than a small compositional crop. Any smearing in shots like that will come from noise reduction which is unable to be turned off.

It is NOT a Fuji fault or trait !!!!!

Good software shows no smearing in raw files at any iso, A$obe products do show it! My pick, which really does do a good job with Fuji colours is Photo Ninja. Cheap, fast enough and consistent with no huge learning curve.

But I may be tempted to just use the classic chrome jpeg setting. Its the first jpeg I've seen where I've consistently liked the results. But note not all the Fuji's use X-tran sensors.

I have been very happy with many many many jpeg images from the x100s ( no chrome simulation settings ) using a few of their film simulations depending on subject.