D700 flashing "Err"

[MattNQ]

Shooting touch football Friday night.
D700+80-200/2.0 with grip with AA's inserted for max frame rate. Kept flashing "Err" and only shot one frame at a time (despite set on continuous)
Turn off for a bit then on. sometimes shot a few fast frames. then back to "Err"

Wiped over lens contacts. no change.
Took grip off. No more "Err"

Today shooting indoor netball with grip - not a problem. No "Err"
Now I did use a freshly formatted card at netball, whereas at touch I had grabbed the camera in a hurry & used a card with plenty of images on the card already

Anyone been there, done that?
Is it as simple as using clean cards, or is that just a coincidence?

[ricktas]

Not seen that one! I use the grip fairly much all the time, but have not used it with AA's at all. Only issue I have had is if the wheel to tighten the grip to the body comes slightly loose, then the 'toggle pad' on the grip sometimes just stops working. Tighten the wheel and it comes right.

[Speedway]

I have grips permanently on both my cameras and tried AA's once but life was useless. Cant understand why you used them for max frame rate as you get this with normal batteries, the frame rate is set in camera and once the charge drops too low everything stops. The card should make no difference either. sounds more like a bad contact somewhere.
Cheers

[MattNQ]

I have grips permanently on both my cameras and tried AA's once but life was useless. Cant understand why you used them for max frame rate as you get this with normal batteries, the frame rate is set in camera and once the charge drops too low everything stops. The card should make no difference either. sounds more like a bad contact somewhere.
Cheers

Thanks Keith.
The D700 is a bit quirky in that regard. EN-EL3e is the standard battery - it gets up to 5fps ungripped - To get 8fps you need the grip plus either the more expensive EN-EL4a battery or AA's. The standard EN-EL3e battery won't cut it at the higher frame rate.
There is a trick to force 8fps without the grip by setting up a 9 frame bracketing sequence, but the continuous AF is disabled between frames - which is still ok is some situations.

[I @ M]

Matt, I remember similar things happening with a D700 and a 3rd party grip we have. It was only once in a while that it would happen and was "fixed" by unmounting and remounting the grip. I am not blaming it on the grip being a 3rd party unit, it might have also occurred with a genu$wine unit as well if I had one or may even be the contacts in the body itself.

[arthurking83]

FWIW: if it's a card format/reading issue, the display should indicate '-E-' not 'Err'.

Err messages can be many things. Generally it means a camera malfunction of some type.

Usually tho this doesn't necessarily mean the camera is the problem, power is more often than not the culprit.

The last time I saw an Err message on my D800, was when in liveview mode (and also in video mode).
I knew the battery was dying and almost out of power, but I thought I had enough juice to get a few more shots.
Because I had the camera in Lv (or video) mode, the mirror was the the raised position when the camera did die due to not enough power in the battery.
Replaced battery with a freshly charged one(EN-EL15) and the camera was jammed, only showing the Err message on the top LCD!
Not knowing what to do, and of course your minds immediately races to the worst possible conclusion that the camera is dead .. press the shutter release, the mirror immediately comes down and all is good again!

So if you have used Lv or video mode or Mup mode too I suppose, and the battery dies and the camera 'gets stuck' in the mirror up condition. It's an idea to keep these situations in the back of your mind.

So firstly it won't be(or shouldn't be a card issue) You could take it out or replace it with an unusable one to test this theory(I've had heaps of Sandisks go bunk on me for no reason and have seen this all too regularly over the past couple of years ... the error msg should be the '-E-' display I referred too earlier.

While you say that you used AA's, I assume they had been positively tested for good power.
You may have 8AA's all up, but if one is a bit dodgy or depleted, it will impact the entire power supply.
Did you use Alkalines, or NiMH, or Lithiums? they each have different voltage ratings. I'm pretty sure the camera actually has a separate setting for using Alkalines or Rechargeables in the CSM.
Could be different on the D700, but on the D800 it's in CSM d11(MB-Dnn battery type, where nn is the model number of the D700's grip).
Suppose you have this set to the Alkaline option(default) but are using NiMH's .. Alkaline batteries supply 1.5v each, whereas NiMH's only supply 1.2v. The camera may think that the batteries are going flat .. or too flat to keep the camera going.

Just a few hypotheticals to keep in mind.

But for what it's worth, the Err message usually means a power problem of some type.

[MattNQ]

Matt, I remember similar things happening with a D700 and a 3rd party grip we have. It was only once in a while that it would happen and was "fixed" by unmounting and remounting the grip. I am not blaming it on the grip being a 3rd party unit, it might have also occurred with a genu$wine unit as well if I had one or may even be the contacts in the body itself.

Thanks Andrew, I'll have a close look at the contacts and how they all align

- - - Updated - - -

FWIW: if it's a card format/reading issue, the display should indicate '-E-' not 'Err'.

Err messages can be many things. Generally it means a camera malfunction of some type.

.
.
.

Just a few hypotheticals to keep in mind.

But for what it's worth, the Err message usually means a power problem of some type.

Thanks Arthur.
Some good ideas on things to check/follow up on
They are new NiMh rechargeable & I did set the battery type in the menu to suit. I did initially use alkalines when I first got the grip.
Of course now I (with memory like a sieve) can't remember if the error message started with the alkalines or rechargeables.

I haven't really had a need to use live view yet, so no issue there.

Might just be a process of elimination to see when it happens & under what conditions.
Probably should put a meter on the rechargeables to see if they are all good after charging - ie no dodgy ones

[MattNQ]

Update (if anyone is interested) Only had this error sporadically in recent months. Was good over Christmas & that last sunrise shoot I did (no grip attached) , it did not falter at all.

Last sunday I did some shooting along the river (no grip attached) & it did it every few shots with my Sigma wides.
Then at soccer in the afternoon (grip attached) with the Nikon zoom it did it as well.
But than at netball wednesday night (grip attached) it did not do it at all.

If I am on Aperture priority when it flashes "err", the shot taken is way overexposed.
If I am on manual, it maintains the exposure as set. (so I get one good photo at least)

Last night it was doing it at home playing with it, so I took the lenses off - It does not do it when the lenses are off so I think it maybe is a problem with the contacts on the body..but they look clean, so the problem may be deeper in the gizzards of the camera.

The lenses work fine on other cameras (tried on a D3 & D3000), and I have updated the firmware, reset to default settings, formatted cards etc.

[I @ M]

If I am on Aperture priority when it flashes "err", the shot taken is way overexposed.
If I am on manual, it maintains the exposure as set. (so I get one good photo at least)

Just as an experiment Matt, set the camera to aperture priority and try to get the problem occurring and then set the aperture to wide open ( the faster the lens the better ) and see if you are still getting overexposed images when the problem is happening.

Why it would happen in aperture priority and not manual is strange but it is sounding a little like the aperture is not closing down at the point of exposure. That would explain over exposure and why the lenses seem to work fine on other bodies, the lenses are good but something in the electrics of the camera may not be communicating with the aperture stop down servo. That might explain the err message. In theory if you can try it with a lens wide open ( no need for the body to stop the lens down ) and the fault goes away my idea might hold water. If it still continues to happen with a wide open lens then we are back to the drawing board.

[MattNQ]

Just as an experiment Matt, set the camera to aperture priority and try to get the problem occurring and then set the aperture to wide open ( the faster the lens the better ) and see if you are still getting overexposed images when the problem is happening.

Andrew, you are on the money!

Shooting wide open (f2.8) on my lenses everything is fine.
As soon as I change from wide open....I get the error. Sometimes after several normal shots, sometimes straight away.

So just to be sure, I dug out my old 75-300/4.5-5.6. At 75mm f4.5 was good, at 300mm f5.6 was good as both were wide open ....but f5.6 at 75mm gives the error.

The reason why netball was good & soccer wasn't was of course I shoot nighttime netball at f2.8 & I usually shoot daytime soccer at f4
And of course at Christmas the shots were either inside, or outside in the afternoons/evening so I was on f2.8 for most of them as well.

[I @ M]

Sounds like a trip to the doctor is in order to get the problem looked at / repaired.

At least with all the symptoms narrowed down it should be a fairly short diagnosis process from here on in. I don't know the exact chain of parts in the aperture closing process but there is an electric signal or two or three and then the electro mechanical actuation of the aperture lever. Hopefully any parts involved in a repair are reasonably inexpensive.

[arthurking83]

The aperture control mechanism is located just inside the mount, at about the 9 o'clock position(when looking into the mount).
It's a flat piece of metal that moves in a vertical plane when a shot is taken.
You can move this mechanical link by hand(finger) .. but don't do it too many times(just in case it causes problems).
It's always in the highest position, and when you make an exposure, it always moves down. You can see it in operation if you make an exposure with no lens attached.

Going by what you've described there, a test you could do to accumulate more information is:

With any CPU lens mounted but that CPU lens having an aperture ring to manually control the aperture(any AF-D type lens is good).
Setup the camera in CSM item f9 (Customise Command Dials) and look for Aperture Control.
Select Aperture Control and choose the Aperture Ring option.
What this does is to change the way you control the aperture, so instead of the sub command dial, you use the physical ring on the lens to select the aperture.

Obviously you would do this when you see that the err msg has come back on again, just to see if there is any difference in exposure when setting any non wide open aperture value.

So, if you get overexposure when setting f/5.6 on an f/2.8 lens when this err msg is on, by controlling the aperture value via the aperture ring, all you want to see, is if there is any difference or change in this overexposure issue.

Note that, if your problem is indeed this aperture control lever(within the mount, as described) .. it's almost certain to be because it's stopped working at the time of the error.
Over exposure is most likely due to the camera expecting a closed down aperture value(eg. f/4 or f/5.6), and hence an appropriate shutter value.
But if the aperture control lever isn't working .. ie. doing it's job of closing down the aperture to the chosen value, the camera doesn't know this(exactly) still uses the shutter value for the expected aperture value .. and you'll get over exposure.

Most likely you won't see any difference(but it's worth the effort to see if this is definitely true!) as all you have done by changing the control of the aperture from the sub command dial to the aperture ring is just that .. change the way it's set.
The camera still has control of the actual aperture change.

One other test you could quickly try out too, is that when the camera shows this err msg, switch to Liveview mode. (with the same control setup via the aperture ring).

I don't know if this will work on the D700, as Nikon seem to alter the way aperture control works with every camera model.
But, as you change aperture value, it may actually change in real time as you effect the change.
On any manual camera you will see this if you look through the lens into the camera... the aperture physically gets smaller as you stop down.

Why I say it may or may not work .. I don't have a D700 to test, but on my D300 this doesn't happen. That is, with a CPU lens attached the aperture stays wide open if I set a smaller aperture value in Lv mode.
But on the D800, the aperture moves in real time. That is, as the lens is stopped down, you can see the aperture through the lens, get smaller.

overall tho, I'd say there is a problem with the aperture control mechanism. Whether this is just the mechanism itself, or an electrical/electronic comms issue between lens/camera/aperture control arm is where you need a Nikon service outlet to check it out.

If it makes any difference to you too: that small aperture control arm is controlled by a micro motor servo unit within the body.
From what I've seen of them, they look like a bloody expensive unit in their own right .. plus the cost of labour to replace them, as the entire camera needs to pulled apart to get to it.

Just hope)if you want to fix it) that the issue is related to some comms problem at some obscure contact point.

ps. just because contacts look clean, doesn't necessarily mean they are in perfect shape.
My understanding is that they are gold plated and pretty hardy, but that sometimes they do accumulate a build up of (whatever) that cause issues.
Just a light rub with a clean eraser always helps.
Could be that your location up in the far north may be causing an issue too.
(I've had to do the light rub with an eraser once on my D300 .. years ago .. and the last time I had issues with a lens not communicating 100%, I used a couple of drops of eclipse fluid on a cotton bud instead, only because I didn't have an eraser tho.
Either way both times, that did the trick.

[MattNQ]

Thanks Arthur. I'll try your suggestions. But I better do some chores first to keep the wife at bay...she already thinks I spend too much time playing with cameras

Sent from Earth via Tapatalk

[I @ M]

And of course, simply depressing the depth of field preview button on the camera should give you a fair indication as to whether things are working.

[arthurking83]

I was going to suggest that DOFP button too .. and it is another perspective to try.

The problem is, that this aperture control mechanism is a complex device.

There has been some discussion of some of their workings over on Nikon Hacker .. and where the lower end models .. not limited too but as an example the D5100 have a simple aperture control mechanism, which only controls the aperture.
Some of the higher end types also have at least input from the shutter mechanism as well.

That is, the more simple types don't allow aperture control in real time (say) in Lv mode, or movie mode .. because all they do is control the aperture. This is the D5100 type.

The more complex types need other inputs .. possibly output levels too from other areas of the camera .. possibly shutter, maybe metering .. etc.


It's most likely evident here that the aperture control mechanism is working fine .. if it were an issue, it'd operate the same way in any program mode(M, or A) .. and not differentiate.

The question is why is it an issue in A mode .. and what's causing that. .. or on some lenses and not others ... etc.

[I @ M]

Arthur, I strongly suspect that it will be evident in all modes, it is just that Matt was probably shooting in manual with the lens wide open and not seeing the prob and when shooting in A mode with the lens stopped down the problem surfaced. I feel that if any lens is attached and stopped down in any mode the prob will be there.

[arthurking83]

......

As soon as I change from wide open....I get the error. Sometimes after several normal shots, sometimes straight away.

.....

To be sure.

This happens with any lens, or some lenses do it and others don't.

That is, with any lens mounted and you stop down this err msg comes up and you have problems.

Do you have any Nikon manual(ais/ai type) lenses to test with as well.
So you'd set the lens data on the camera and all that stuff. Set the aperture on the lens .. trying both wide open and also stopped down to see if the issue is also there.

[MattNQ]

I don't have a vast selection, but tried it on the following;
Sigma 14/2.8, Sigma 17-35/2.8-4.0, Nikkor 80-200/2.8, Nikkor 75-300/4.5-5.6. Even tried my old 18-55 DX kit lens (my only G type lens)
Same result - error when stopping down.

I have an old Nikkor 43-86/3.5 (ai lens) & tried your suggestion setting up the lens data on camera - it all worked fine, wide open & stopped down.

Yep, all modes generate the same error - A, M, P & S.
The only difference is that when in A, the frame taken as the error occurs tends to be over exposed, whereas in M, frame's exposure looks it is as it was set - ie perfect

[MattNQ]

For those that are interested in how this panned out, I sent the camera off to Andersons.

The problem is a hardware issue - Needs the "I" substrate replaced.

Not cheap. Over $660. (quote does includes sensor clean & grip replacement, which I could opt out of I guess)
Can't really justify that expenditure unfortunately. Thus endeth the D700 experience (well, I can still use it wide open for nightime sport I guess )

[I @ M]

That's a bummer Matt.

I wonder if you could get a better price from somewhere else even if it meant scouring the net for the parts needed and then getting someone else who could give a cheaper labour quote to do the work.