New point-and-shoot?

[bitsnpieces]

There's not many:
http://www.popphoto.com/news/2013/07...meras?page=0,0
http://gearpatrol.com/2013/10/09/pri...ens-cameras/2/

I still recommend the x20 - has everything you need, optical viewfinder, great quality photos day and night, lots of options and functions, great lens attached. Sure, it isn't fixed, but I prefer zoom - that's just me.

Just my 2 cents

[swifty]

The x20 and x100t look to have very similar features, other than improved OVF on the x100t, slightly better buffers for burst shots, etc, all in all, they're fairly even and I would say the quality is just as good (I don't own either and this is speculation - true, x100t has a bigger sensor and runs at bigger megapixels, but the size of the receivers may inevitably still be the same as what's in the x20/30, so quality would be very similar)

Not really understanding by what you mean by size of receivers. Do you mean the pixel pitch?

Anyhow, I can't say I agree the X20 being comparable to the X100T.
IMO, though both very capable in their own right, the two are very different cameras.
Small sensor zoom vs large sensor prime.
Image quality on the X100T would be up there with the best of APS-C whilst the X20 is more in line with the better P&S such as the RX100 series.
Of course this IQ advantage on the X100T will depend on how the camera is ultimately used.

[arthurking83]

Another option not yet opened up is Sony's two new Q series 'camera' modules.

If you already have a smart phone, these small devices seem to fit the bill well.
That is, a small compact camera module(basically just the sensor and a lens) that can be stored more compactly than any traditional camera can be.

Various setups are available with respect to sensor size and or lens combinations, up to the point where you can get just the sensor without any lens and add any Sony E type mount lens to it as you see fit. (that'd be the QX1 model).
The other three devices in this range of products are the QX10 with a 10x zoom lens, the QX100 with a larger sensor(1") and (only)3.6x zoom lens, and the QX30 with a small sensor again and 30x zoom lens.
The QX1 has an APS-C sized sensor but requires the additional purchase of at least one lens(obviously adding to the cost yet again).

Had any of these products been available 2 years earlier, I'd have got at least one of them for my daughter, instead of the Samsung Galaxy Camera I got her(she was 10 back then and wanted more of a fun toy rather than a proper camera).

The only caveat with these types of devices is that you already own a smart phone type device(or a tablet, or whatever).
They come with the necessary attachment doodles that you need to fix the module to the smart phone, but aren't strictly required. The module connects via a wireless connection to the host device(phone/tablet/etc).

To my mind, the QX1 and QX100 are the two devices obviously aimed at the more photographically minded consumer than either the QX10 or QX30 are.
Looking at the specs of the QX100, and then looking at the specs of a RX100III(proper compact camera) .. the lens and sensor module appears to be the same hardware. Lens specs are the same, and sensor specs are the same. There are some very minor differences, and they could be important to you or not.
ie. the QX100 appears to be an RX100III minus the physical handling hardware(dials, buttons, knobs, and rocker switches).

The major downside of the QX module tho is that it doesn't shoot in raw format(where the RX camera does).
The other downside would be that the battery couldn't possibly last as long on the module, as a larger battery would on the camera.

.. anyhow, something else to muse over.

[swifty]

For the sake of my question, which may be something I don't necessarily want, are there any fixed focus point and shoot cameras - with a good sensor - and a viewfinder - but less than Leica prices?

Many fixed focal P&S cameras with good sensors but not many with a built-in viewfinder.
Some are quirky eg. Sigma's DP series.
There's a Ricoh GR that I really like and have used (but not own) and a Nikon variant called the Coolpix A that started life considerably more expensive than the GR but similarly priced these days I believe.
They don't tend to come cheap though (as in <$500 type pricing) even during run out sales.

Of course with budget considerations I won't mention the Sony RX1 series and Leica X P&S cameras

How bout a second hand X100s? I still think the X100 series fits the bill the best but would avoid the first generation X100 if you want to consider used cameras.

[bitsnpieces]

I believe pixel pitch is the term, yes. What I said may be a incorrect and a little out - but just trying to say that the x20 is a very capable point and shoot camera, and for the budget Bill is putting out, I would agree with that recommendation. If he wanted to spend more, he can do it on accessories for the camera, rather than shelling out a thousand just for a camera and no accessories, unless he doesn't plan on having extra accessories.

Now for the wild tangent which you can skip if you like
So let's compare pixel advantage:
x100t is 16.3MP, image size of 4896x3264, sensor size 23.6 x 15.6mm
x20 is 12MP, image size of 4000x3000, sensor size 8.8 - 6.6mm

Based on how they calculate pixel density advantage for the a77 and a7r (http://www.robsphotography.co.nz/Sony-SLT-A77-A7R.html), I want to see the advantage of the x100t over the x20.
16.3/4896 x 1000 = 3.3
12/4000 x 1000 = 3

So now the area of one pixel:
For the x100t is 10.89
For the x20 is 9
Not bad...

To reconfirm, working it out again another way - pixel density (http://www.laesieworks.com/digicom/MP.html)
x100t - 16.3 / (2.36 x 1.56) = 4.43
x20 - 12 / (.88 x .66) = 20.66

So working out the density again from the other method:
For the x100t is 2074.58
For the x20 is 4545.45
Yep, the x20 is more dense.

So what does this mean? In essence, yes, the quality will be different. X100T is definitely the better camera.
Here's a review I found: http://www.the-owl.co.uk/reviews/fuji-x100t-review.html

But here's when software and hardware play in too.
Lens is a big factor, in having the right lens to capture what you want.
http://www.mdavid.com.au/photography/pixeldensity.shtml

Also, software wise, I love my Sony WX300. Sure, it's only a point and shoot, it's not DSLR, but it has given me amazing photos. Having used my friend's x10 (at least if I remember now, it is the x10, where the x20 is an improvement), I would take the x20 over the WX350 (upgrade of the WX300) any day. Fujifilm processed their images better than Sony. I am confident with the x20's performance in low light - sure, it's no x100t equivalent, but it works well enough.
At the end of the day, results is the only thing to go on: http://www.bestmirrorlesscamerarevie...seum-of-turin/

I found a comment from someone looking at the sample images:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3725088
Interesting for what they say the quality is like.
Here's the sample images: http://www.fujifilm.com/products/dig...sample_images/

Regarding the QX series from Sony, definitely a great option to look into - only problem is software implementation from Sony is horrible. Bill is looking for a fast and reliable camera right? The QX is still just a gimmick for now - who knows what the future holds for it, once Sony's software division get decent programmers.

Tangent over.

[richardb]

Any handphone or an iPhone 6 ? Ye can mail your shots immediately.

[swifty]

Hi bitsnpieces,
Sorry but you lost me on the calculations.
Firstly why are you comparing pixel density?
X20 has a pixel pitch of around 2.2microns (X100T ~ 4.7microns) and a pixel area of around 4.84 square microns (X100T ~ 22 square microns).
But your pixel density figure is correct at 20.66pixels/cm square. Yes the X20 has a far denser sensor but that's usually not a good thing.

Anyways this site has done the figures for us:
http://www.digicamdb.com/compare/fuj...ujifilm_x100t/

In short, X100T has fatter pixels (4.7X the area) and more of it (16 million vs 12 million).
I'm sorry but there's no contest between the X100T and X20.

[arthurking83]

.....
I'm sorry but there's no contest between the X100T and X20.

Yeah, you can clearly see this(that the APS-C sized sensor is clearly better) in DPR's image comparison tool.

[BillW]

Gee guys, great responses. Your interest very much valued and I'm glad you've found my post worthy of comment. Where to start?

Starting with richardb. My kids are on to me about updating my smart phone. As mentioned above, my eyes struggle with LCD displays in less than optimal conditions. So I have been considering newly superseded models, most impressive so far being the LG G2, really bright display of about the largest size that might slip into a pocket without being too big. Don't know about its camera. I seem to be noting that all the different phones have different camera plus points. I think for me the more important points would be low light capability and flash that includes functioning as a torch. And I don't really take movies so that is my least important requirement. Your comments more than welcome.

Moving back to cameras, I note that my beloved old Canon that I am trying to replicate was a fixed focal 38mm. I know that is considered not wide enough by many and most of the fixed focal cameras so far discussed are about 28mm. Is that right? Including the x100s? And the Ricoh GR and Coolpix A, which I admit do look great? But the point here is that I liked what the old camera gave me.

To achieve this result might have me revert to a quality small zoom range or look again at the pancake 40mm as suggested by Brian.

Or we come back again to the x20 or even x30 as my ideal compromise, perhaps a second hand x20.

Or, as Swifty said in post#10, the 1" sensor is where all the action is - I might at this stage get a pancake lens to try with my 7D, a new (nearly) phone, and wait to see what emerges in the next period, hoping the 1" sensor market throws up a competitive mix to choose from.

- - - Updated - - -

As an add-on, I noted at the outset that my old camera had Skylight [1B] Hoya filter. It is so long ago that I can't remember why I chose that particular filter. Could it have had something to do with being in comparatively low light northern climes at the time? And so, now for Australian climes, what everyday (no special effects) filters are favoured here?

[arthurking83]

with the filter, you'd choose a skylight filter for more harsh light conditions. The skylight filter gave a slight pinkish(warming) effect on many films in their heyday.

with digital, this is no linger needed, as the warming/cooling/colouring effect is best done via whitebalance adjustments(or colour editing).

for any digital camera, these types of filters(UV, skylight, etc) are of little use or effect.

Do consider a polariser filter tho. They can optically enhance images in a manner that no digital filtering effect can.

[swifty]

The X100 series are 35mm equiv, the Coolpix A and Ricoh GR are 28mm equiv. The latest Sigma DP 1 2 and 3's are 28mm, 50mm and 75mm respectively.

Actually if you need a new smartphone anyways, that might not be a bad idea. Most smartphone cameras are in around the 30mm range of focal lengths and are getting pretty darn good.

Just to give you some idea of upcoming products, the Canon G7 X just leaked. The Panasonic LX100 rumours are running rampant.
And you can bet just about every major camera company will have entries in the premium compact soon, if not primed for announcement imminently.
But they won't come cheap I believe. But you know what competition does to prices

[bitsnpieces]

Hi swifty, yes, I agree with everything you're saying, and the numbers I was throwing out was just hoping to illustrate it more. I didn't know about the site you linked, couldn't find one like it, so I didn't have those fancy graphs unfortunately

But regardless, I still stand by the point, X20 is the way to go, if the budget is going to be a deciding factor. It's no prime, but it's still a high quality lens, with zoom ability.
My focus this whole time has always been the budget, so all recommendations and posts is focused on this.
But if BillW is happy to fork out more, heck, go for gold.

[BillW]

Happy to report two conclusions. I have just bought under EBay's 15% off window an LG G2 and the Canon pancake 40mm, both from DWI, total for both $486 incl del. Looking forward to the voyage of discovery.

On cameras, I intend to wait, again valuing Swifty's report of rampant rumours. Just before my decision above, I was starting to look again at the Pana LX-7, which along with the Leica D-LUX 6, seemed to fit into my wish for a fast lens, limited zoom, etc. Even now, if I can spot an absolute bargain for the LX-7 I might be tempted, and get one of the accessory viewfinders. These two cameras really seem to appeal to me, "at the moment".

All best to all of you who have helped me come to these decisions.

Bill