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Thread: FF vs APS-C -- light per pixel vs whole image

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    Site Rules Breach - Permanent Ban dtmateojr's Avatar
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    FF vs APS-C -- light per pixel vs whole image

    Here's a big myth that is being spread in forums that I have been trying to debunk: full frame is better at gathering light compared to smaller sensor cameras. No it's not.

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    Arch-Σigmoid Ausphotography Regular ameerat42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtmateojr View Post
    Here's a big myth that is being spread in forums that I have been trying to debunk: full frame is better at gathering light compared to smaller sensor cameras. No it's not.
    Care to fully explode this "myth", dtm? A new thread in "f-stop" forum would be an idea. It may help focus the ideas of less-experienced photographers.
    As it stands, you're only making an assertion of your own.

    To start, I'll counter with: yes they are, because of their usually larger photosite size.
    Am.
    CC, Image editing OK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ameerat42 View Post
    Care to fully explode this "myth", dtm? A new thread in "f-stop" forum would be an idea. It may help focus the ideas of less-experienced photographers.
    As it stands, you're only making an assertion of your own.

    To start, I'll counter with: yes they are, because of their usually larger photosite size.
    Am.
    You are correct about the photosites. Fortunately that is not the myth. A better example is the Nikon D7000 vs D800 which have the same pixel pitch (same density). Full frame users still believe that their camera is a stop better at gathering light. That's completely wrong.

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    Thanks for creating this separate thread. It's going to be a lengthy one

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    It's all about the Light!
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    I've moved these posts to their own thread as its a good discussion

    There are two different issues.

    At the pixel level assuming same sized pixel in the same technology then the light is the same.

    At the whole of sensor level and related to the final printed product,
    then obviously a larger sensor has caught more photons for that same sized print.
    But that is apples and oranges (different scaling).

    Obviously comparing a Nikon D7000 to a D800 this holds true, now lets get serious... Pentax 645z 50mp MF !!
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    FF vs APS-C -- light per pixel vs whole image

    Let me clarify that there are two separate arguments from full frame owners:

    1. f-stops are not the same across different formats (equivalency argument)

    2. the larger sensor area results in more light gathered therefore better noise performance. That's a stop of difference vs apsc and two stops vs 4/3rds
    Last edited by dtmateojr; 12-06-2014 at 8:10am. Reason: clarification

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kym View Post
    I've moved these posts to their own thread as its a good discussion

    There are two different issues.

    At the pixel level assuming same sized pixel in the same technology then the light is the same.

    At the whole of sensor level and related to the final printed product,
    then obviously a larger sensor has caught more photons for that same sized print.
    But that is apples and oranges (different scaling).

    Obviously comparing a Nikon D7000 to a D800 this holds true, now lets get serious... Pentax 645z 50mp MF !!
    Light volume has got nothing to do with it. The perceived better noise performance of larger images is a product of downsampling and not a result of better light gathering.

    If you do not mind, here is my lengthy explanation complete with math:

    http://dtmateojr.wordpress.com/2014/...allucinations/

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    People here seem to be unusually quiet I expected a non-stop salvo of machinegun fire from full frame proponents.

    Anyway, if that previous link is too much to handle, here is a much simpler proof: FILM http://dtmateojr.wordpress.com/2014/...iority-part-2/

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    I have not heard a myth about the D7000 D800 at all, unless your post is to try and create one? Self fulfilling prophecy and all! Certainly I am with Am on this. It is about pixelsite size. I have no idea where you found this myth dtmateojr cause it is not one that has been on AP. I think we have discussed this plenty of times. Most recently in a micro 4/3rd discussion, and the smaller sensor.

    Perhaps you are creating a myth, where there was not one, in relation to AP and its members?

    Quote Originally Posted by dtmateojr View Post
    People here seem to be unusually quiet I expected a non-stop salvo of machinegun fire from full frame proponents.
    Perhaps we are quiet cause you are telling us something we already know. I don't think you will get the heated debate you expected.
    Last edited by ricktas; 12-06-2014 at 6:34pm.
    "It is one thing to make a picture of what a person looks like, it is another thing to make a portrait of who they are" - Paul Caponigro

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    Arch-Σigmoid Ausphotography Regular ameerat42's Avatar
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    Why should you have expected that? It implies that any such proponents would be wrong.
    You have amply made your point - complete with machine-gun fire - and thrown light into some possibly dark corners.

    Most of the time it is only slipping up in semantics and expression that makes someone "wrong". That fixed, and lo! we're all talking the same language!
    Thanks for your explanations/clarifications/setting wrongs right - and a flurry of other accolades. Now, to go and beat some machine-guns into ploughshares...
    Am.

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    Ausphotography Regular bcys1961's Avatar
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    So where does my OMD fit on the scale of sensor sizes ? And does it really matter ?
    I remember reading a quote , somewhere which was something like this : " The quality of almost all cameras you can buy today , far exceeds the skill of most photographers using them!".
    The name is Brad ......

    OMD EM-1, OMD EM-5MkII, m.Zuiko 12-40mm Pro f2.8, m.Zuiko 40-150mm f2.8 Pro , m.Zuiko 60mm f2.8 Macro, m.Zuiko 17mm f1.8 , Lee Filters




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    Moderately Underexposed I @ M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtmateojr View Post
    People here seem to be unusually quiet I expected a non-stop salvo of machinegun fire from full frame proponents.
    I don't think it is unusually quiet at all. These days ever so many people are turning off from the tech details and surrounding arguments, simply grabbing the gear that suits their needs and getting pleasing images.


    The more I see of posts from people getting into the technical stuff, the less I see good images from the people arguing ----
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    Well there's been a lot of talk here but; what's the outcome.


    Ross
    Ross. Nikon D80, Nikon D300s, Nikkor 18-200, , Nikon 105mm Micro lens.

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    As Keen As Mustard NikonNellie's Avatar
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    I have no idea about the technicalities between a D7000 and a D800. All I know is that I own both cameras and the quality of the images (especially in low light) of the D800 is far superior to the D7000.
    CAMERA: Nikon D800, Nikon D7000
    LENSES: AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8, Tamron SP AF 90mm F/2.8 Macro, Sigma 10 - 20mm F/4 - 5.6, Sigma 150 - 500mm F/5 - 6.3 APO DG OS, Nikkor 18 - 200mm F/3.5 - 5.6 VRII,
    Sigma 70 - 200mm f2.8 APO EX DG OS, Tamron SP 24 - 70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD, Sigma 85mm F/1.4 EX DG, Nikkor AF-S 16-35mm F/4 ED VR
    MY WEBSITES: www.nawimages.com, http://nelliewajzerphotography.smugmug.com/, http://NellieWajzerPhotography.blogspot.com



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    Of course you know that the better quality light prefers to go into a Canon!! <runs>

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    Ausphotography Addict geoffsta's Avatar
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    Here is a bigger argument... I was watching the BooHoo clothing add on telly tonight. And near the end there was a skirt called the "PU Skirt"
    So is the pronunciation "Pooh skirt" or "Puss Skirt"

    Seriously. I @ M hit the nail on the head. People don't care how much light hits a sensor. People buy a camera for it's image quality, and what they can afford, and what feels comfortable in their hands. And that's all....
    Geoff
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    It's all about the Light!
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    Demo, AP is well moderated and you won't get hit hard personally like on other fora; people acuse us of over moderation, but guess what? AP is safe.

    Secondly, your arguments are technically sound, so no-one is trying to prove anything.

    Thirdly, we really only care about final image, not so much how you got there or the gear that was used.
    Last edited by Kym; 12-06-2014 at 9:23pm.

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    FF vs APS-C -- light per pixel vs whole image

    Quote Originally Posted by ricktas View Post
    I have not heard a myth about the D7000 D800 at all, unless your post is to try and create one? Self fulfilling prophecy and all! Certainly I am with Am on this. It is about pixelsite size. I have no idea where you found this myth dtmateojr cause it is not one that has been on AP. I think we have discussed this plenty of times. Most recently in a micro 4/3rd discussion, and the smaller sensor.

    Perhaps you are creating a myth, where there was not one, in relation to AP and its members?



    Perhaps we are quiet cause you are telling us something we already know. I don't think you will get the heated debate you expected.
    It started in Pentax Forum ... you know, that brand that doesn't have any full frame :-D Their users are dying to get their hands on one but Pentax hasn't made any move. A lot of them have sold their Pentax gear and switched to CaNiSon just to satisfy their wants. They remain members of the forum and spreading nonsense.

    Not sure how it happened but my blog spread to dpreview where people started calling me names :-)

    It's good to know that this myth isn't popular here in AP but it sure is widespread in Whirlpool and is a constant source of heated arguments.

    Have a look at the blog post again 'coz I have just approved a silly comment. Not sure where that guy came from but that's the kind of treatment I get for presenting facts. :-)
    Last edited by dtmateojr; 12-06-2014 at 10:27pm. Reason: more info

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    Administrator ricktas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtmateojr View Post
    It started in Pentax Forum ... you know, that brand that doesn't have any full frame :-D Their users are dying to get their hands on one but Pentax hasn't made any move. A lot of them have sold their Pentax gear and switched to CaNiSon just to satisfy their wants. They remain members of the forum and spreading nonsense.

    Not sure how it happened but my blog spread to dpreview where people started calling me names :-)

    It's good to know that this myth isn't popular here in AP but it sure is widespread in Whirlpool and is a constant source of heated arguments.

    Have a look at the blog post again 'coz I have just approved a silly comment. Not sure where that guy came from but that's the kind of treatment I get for presenting facts. :-)
    The world used to have village idiots, and everyone in the village knew who they were. Along came the net and the idiots just got a space to perform, where most did not know who they were. No use arguing with them on the net, cause no matter what, they will still be idiots. You cannot change that. Move on, know you are right about this topic, and leave the idiots behind. If they do not want to learn, or understand, then that is their issue, not yours. Don't let them drag you down into some meaningless conversation on the net. They enjoy doing that to people. Probably laughing when you reply, simply cause you did reply. They care naught for the facts.

    PS: DPReview is notorious for this, pimply faced teenagers hiding behind the net, pretending to be photographic experts, but in some cases not even owning a camera. They read the net, gather information, become ex-perts, but ask them to show you some of their photography, and they have none.

    We even get them here on AP. Pretending to be a Pro with years of experience, but something doesn't gel, and a bit of research by the mod team finds them on facebook, talking about their school excursion next week. We have banned a few of them over the years.

    Ah the internet, good for somethings, great for idiots.
    Last edited by ricktas; 13-06-2014 at 5:50am.

  20. #20
    It's all about the Light!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtmateojr View Post
    It's good to know that this myth isn't popular here in AP but it sure is widespread in Whirlpool and is a constant source of heated arguments.
    AP is a class above
    More importantly it is safe.

    Some people think "mine is bigger and more expensive so it must be better" (and when will I get a 645z -- wishing ).
    We don't get that here very often, or they just leave after a while.

    So lets see some more of your photos!!

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