List of Mirrorless cameras

[martycon]

Thanks for the thought Rick. I will tune in with much interest

[Arg]

Thanks Arg, you must have plenty of time to scan through the web and find out what fits the criteria and that is why we ask people to add cameras that fit the criteria.
Seeing as I am time poor, could you do us a favour and post the model numbers in those posts that you mention and I will happily edit them in.

Current models not in the post #1 list as at today:

Canon EOS M2

Olympus PEN Lite E-PL5
Olympus PEN Mini E-PM2

Panasonic Lumix DMC-G6
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF6
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4

Leica M9
Leica M9-P
Leica M-Monochrom

--

I haven't added any fixed-lens models, they are not DSLM (mirrorless), they are just large-sensor compacts.

[arthurking83]

Leica T is a new one to add to the repository.

[Arg]

The list in post #1 probably needs a bit of topping up due to recent releases.

Lumix GM5
Lumix LX100
Lumix FZ1000

Nikon 1 V3

Kodak S-1

Olympus PL7

Fujifilm X30
Fujifilm X100T

Canon G7 X

Samsung NX1

Happy shopping everyone!

[Arg]

Some interesting definitional news has come to light. An article published in DPR overnight, refers to The Consumer Electronics Association having formalized certain camera terminology. The CEA website says:

Interchangeable Lens Cameras (ILCs)

The CEA Digital Imaging Division Board recently approved use of the following camera terminology:

1. DSLR (short for Digital Single-Lens Reflex Cameras) is a subset of ILC cameras that includes a mirror mechanism.
2. Mirrorless (short for Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Cameras) is a subset of ILC cameras that does not include a mirror mechanism.
3. ILC (short for Interchangeable lens Cameras) includes both DSLR and Mirrorless cameras. By definition, they have Interchangeable Lenses.

So, we have ILC, and under that it splits into DSLR and Mirrorless.

Any fixed-lens camera does not belong in the Mirrorless class of camera, so units like the Fuji X100 series, the Nikon Coolpix A, are not Mirrorless cameras. Also, the fixed-lens 'bridge' cameras like the Sony RX10 and Lumix FZ1000, are not Mirrorless cameras.

The note is silent on rangefinder models, like the Leica M and a couple of Fujis. Mirrorless? Nothing says they aren't.

[ameerat42]

Well, I suppose they've gotter do something to crow about (and generally justify their perceived roles as authorities).
They'll change it all again by-and-by. -- And the world will still turn and nobody will give much of a hoot.
Am(a nonchalant owl).

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PS. Arg. Nevertheless, can you post a link to the article.
Ta.

[bitsnpieces]

I'd have to agree with Arg on how fixed-lens cameras can't be counted as mirrorless - though technically they are mirrorless, if we are to include them into the list in this thread, you'd have to add just about every point and shoot out there.

I guess the new definitions just help distinguish cameras a little more.

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I'd have to agree with Arg on how fixed-lens cameras can't be counted as mirrorless - though technically they are mirrorless, if we are to include them into the list in this thread, you'd have to add just about every point and shoot out there.

I guess the new definitions just help distinguish cameras a little more.

[mikew09]

I have been watching far to many Jason Lanier videos. He has almost convinced me to move to Sony A7 series in my next major upgrade and this being re-enforced with Trey Ratcliff's last shoot at the Lord of the Rings Hobbit site I find it hard to not let emotion move me in another direction. But it will be quite some time before I move to mirror-less from my very much loved 5D3 so the future could be anything ;-)

[I @ M]

I'd have to agree with Arg on how fixed-lens cameras can't be counted as mirrorless - though technically they are mirrorless, if we are to include them into the list in this thread, you'd have to add just about every point and shoot out there.

Already well discussed in post #5 ^

They are a mirror less but we were trying to keep it down to 35mm, apsc and four thirds sensor otherwise we run into just about every compact and point and shoot in the market place.

Or do we exclude the Sony RX1 / R on the grounds that they are "just another" point and shoot?

[bitsnpieces]

Must have missed it somehow lol

Skimming through all the posts to get an idea of what's going on XD

[Analog6]

So do those cameras come under rangefinders? Surely there is a list for them, too?

And to the mirrorless list add the new Fuji X-T10.

As I've said, I'm delighted with my Fuji choices, the X-M1 and X-T1 are excellent cameras and the Fuji jpeg recipe is second to none, IMHO. And I am enjoying going out and about again without heavy cameras & lenses weighing me down.

[Arg]

Recently released cameras that should qualify for the list:

Panasonic Lumix DMC GF7
Panasonic Lumix DMC G7
Olympus OMD E-M5 Mark II
Canon EOS M3
Sony A7S
Sony A7 Mark II
Samsung NX500

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I'd have to agree with Arg on how fixed-lens cameras can't be counted as mirrorless - though technically they are mirrorless, if we are to include them into the list in this thread, you'd have to add just about every point and shoot out there.

I guess the new definitions just help distinguish cameras a little more.

Already well discussed in post #5 ^

Thank you Andrew, as you say, post #5 addresses the exclusion of small-sensor cameras (smaller than Four Thirds) from the list of cameras that qualify for this thread. However, it is silent on the question of fixed lens cameras.

Or do we exclude the Sony RX1 / R on the grounds that they are "just another" point and shoot?

I think post #25 now clarifies why we should exclude it: it has a fixed lens and therefore not classified as a Mirrorless camera. Same for all the other fixed lens cameras in post #1: they can come off the list now.

cheers

[I @ M]

Arg, as far as I am aware the CEA is a self appointed American body that exists to facilitate more sales from retailers. It may have some form of relevance to American retailers but in general I feel that they are trying reinvent the wheel to suit their own ends. Apparently they started out as a spin off from trade shows highlighting audio equipment and decided that seeing as cameras were mostly electronic these days that they should become some sort of authority on them as well.
As far as I am concerned, we have a list of cameras that are not DSLRs, that conform to certain sensor sizes and are generally regarded as mirrorless so I won't be deleting the fixed lens models from the list because you feel that we should.
And as far as I can determine from the CEA page they are simply setting their own standards on what an interchangeable lens camera is, ie either DSLR or mirrorless, nowhere do I see any suggestion in their glossary about fixed lens cameras, either SLR, DSLR or mirrorless.

Maybe they don't realise they exist?

[swifty]

I guess it might be easier to just amend the title of the thread to the title of the forum category.
That way it would be mirrorless and non-DSLRs but referring to larger sensor models as oppose to all P&S.

[Arg]

Yes, I thought of the question of CEA's authority before I posted #25. This isn't CEA making up their own definition, as you imply. This is CEA adopting a widely understood definition and putting it down in words for uniformity's sake.

I would be quite interested to see numerous sites in the world other than this thread that run a definition of Mirrorless Camera to include fixed-lens cameras. You say they are "generally regarded as mirrorless".

Everyone knows what the class of cameras is: it is interchangeable lens cameras without a DSLR mirror. It *does* include the 1" sensor models. The only thing CEA have settled on is a name for them, Mirrorless Cameras, instead of MILC cameras or digital ILC cameras, not a redefinition of which camera models belong. The list of camera models that belong is well understood.

Canon call their EOS M range mirrorless. They do not call their G1X mirrorless, but compact.
Nikon call their 1 Series digital ILC (which fits the definition of mirrorless), but everyone else calls them mirrorless, starting with DPR. They do not call their Coolpix A mirrorless, but high-end compact.
Sony call their A7 and A6000 bodies mirrorless. They do not call the RX1 Series mirrorless, but compact.
Panasonic call their G/GX/GH series mirrorless, but their fixed-lens Four Thirds LX100 a high-end compact.

I think all the big players are in agreement. And I think that being equally clear here is a helpful thing, hence my persistent contributions in this direction, as opposed to running a unique re-definition, which would IMHO be confusing and serve no purpose.

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I guess it might be easier to just amend the title of the thread to the title of the forum category.
That way it would be mirrorless and non-DSLRs but referring to larger sensor models as oppose to all P&S.

Except that "non-DSLR cameras" is a non-category, and only serves to confuse anyone who wants to understand cameras and models.

Much more logical to stick to the general industry consensus and use DSLR, Mirrorless, Compact (with one sub-group Premium Compact, another Superzoom).

[ricktas]

Until such time as the ISO sets a standard, any posturing, claiming, defining or otherwise is always going to have people disputing what is and what isn't a 'mirrorless camera'.

[swifty]

Except that "non-DSLR cameras" is a non-category, and only serves to confuse anyone who wants to understand cameras and models.

Much more logical to stick to the general industry consensus and use DSLR, Mirrorless, Compact (with one sub-group Premium Compact, another Superzoom).

Funny you say that. Since the term mirrorless also caused the same confusion early on since it was a category by exclusion, much in the same way the term non-DSLR is.

But the term stuck and I don't disagree with you that when I say mirrorless I always mean ILCs.
But I have to say other terms have also garnered traction as I see many retailers preferring the moniker CSC (compact system cameras).

End of the day this is a private site and the management can do what they like. I don't always agree but it's their prerogative.

In terms of this thread, it's pretty clear they wanted to included advance fixed lens options too, hence my suggestion to use the forum subcategory title in order to be consistent. When they decided to exclude 1" sensors I thought that was quite arbitrary but again, their choice.
To me using the term compact to describe bridge cameras seems just as confusing for a beginner. In fact the waters are pretty muddied and getting worse as technology merge. When the F mount looses the mirror all hells gonna break loose.

So I'm not too strict on the classifications.
To me they are ILCs or FLCs. In ILCs you have DSLRs and mirrorless as the two main categories.
In FLCs you have zooms and primes. And in each you can draw the line where you like to describe advance/premium or beginner/simple (P&S if you will, which is a pretty poor term IMO but universally adopted).

[ameerat42]

Swifty, you make a good point. "Mirrorless" is the buzz-word that has a lot to answer for.
It certainly reflects poorly on the coiners. Hmm! Maybe there's another side to that!

[ricktas]

When fixed lens bridge cameras first appeared, they were often referred to as prosumer cameras. At that time point n shoot compacts were for consumers and DSLR were for professional/serious photographers.

Give it another ten years and what we call mirrorless now could be replaced by something else that bridges between formats once again. After all 10 years ago, the Nikon D200 was the pinnacle of camera tech. and only 5 years before that, the first camera was put into a mobile phone. The first photo ever taken was in the 1820's so the past 10 years is really only a very small part of the development of cameras. If we are spending so much time on defining what a camera is, then perhaps we all need to get outside and use them instead.

[Arg]

Recently released cameras that should qualify for the list:

Panasonic Lumix DMC GF7
Panasonic Lumix DMC G7
Olympus OMD E-M5 Mark II
Canon EOS M3
Sony a7S
Sony a7 II
Samsung NX500

Bumping the above. Also add:

Sony a7R II

When fixed lens bridge cameras first appeared, they were often referred to as prosumer cameras. At that time point n shoot compacts were for consumers and DSLR were for professional/serious photographers.

Give it another ten years and what we call mirrorless now could be replaced by something else that bridges between formats once again. After all 10 years ago, the Nikon D200 was the pinnacle of camera tech. and only 5 years before that, the first camera was put into a mobile phone. The first photo ever taken was in the 1820's so the past 10 years is really only a very small part of the development of cameras. If we are spending so much time on defining what a camera is, then perhaps we all need to get outside and use them instead.

Sure, and all the more reason not to maintain a unique definition for this site? I don't really care, but agree with you that time wasted on this by a confused beginner would be wasted, and hence preventing that confusion is good. I've only been trying to help.