Anyone else concerned about the way our country is headed?

[Steve Axford]

the 3% was stated by a politician last week on an ABC tv show. I cannot recall the show right now.

Isn't it interesting that a politician would make such a claim, when it is blatantly untrue. I guess he or she relies on the fact that very few people will ever check what they say and even if they say "oh, I made a mistake" the next day, most will remember the first lie and not notice the retraction. According to the UNHCR we take 0.2% of refugees compared with Canada which takes 1.6%, Germany 6.0% and Iran which has 10%.
I do agree with you when you say the issue is being blown out of all proportion, but I don't think we can just blame our pollies or our media for this. We also need to look at ourselves and ask if we could perhaps help a little more than we do and stop panicking about boat people. They are a minute trickle compared to what we would get if we had a land border with, say, Syria.

[ricktas]

This thread has gotten some interest from outside the site. I have been contacted by the ABC regarding our discussion here. One of the things they asked was if I would link to an article on their site. So I am obliging them:

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/...yextra/4850964

[Steve Axford]

That is a very unusual thing for the ABC to do. Are you sure of that?

[ricktas]

That is a very unusual thing for the ABC to do. Are you sure of that?

thanks for insinuating that I am a liar, appreciate it Steve.! You like to have a go at me if you get the chance, so if you dislike me that much, I suggest you go join another site!


The following message was sent to you via the AusPhotography:: Australia's Premier Photography Forum:: Contact Us form by Andrew Davies ( mailto:XXX@abc.net.au ).

--------------------------------

Hello,

I’m an Online Producer with ABC Radio National.

The reason for the email is that I thought this article on our site (on the power of asylum seeker images) maybe of possible interest for Australian Photography and your broader networks.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/...yextra/4850964

When we have articles that we think maybe of interest for relevant people and groups, we like to let them know.

Regards,
Andrew

--------------------------------

Referring Page:
IP Address: 203.2.218.145
User Name: Unregistered
User ID: 0
Email: XXX@abc.net.au

[Steve Axford]

The text of the email does explain it.
I hadn't realized I was accusing you of lying. I thought I was questioning the ABC email rather than you. My apologies if I offended you.

[Duane Pipe]

A fair go!!!! It seems they can find housing for the immigrants while our homeless are on a waiting lists. Go figure.

[Analog6]

A fair go!!!! It seems they can find housing for the immigrants while our homeless are on a waiting lists. Go figure.

Many of our homeless would baulk at living in the conditions the refugees live in. Some of those released into the community have houses, true, paid for by refugee & religious/social help organisations, but in many cases it's mattresses on the floor and boxes to sit on. Or in the camps tents seem to be de riguer. And many homeless folk, while they would like a bed for the night, resist being placed in 'fixed' housing - not all, but a lot of them.

Homeless people and refugees are 2 totally different things and departments, groups etc. A comparison is more apples and onions than apples and oranges.

The whole demonisation of refugess, over 97% of whom were found to be genuine in the last batch processed, is a wicked political ploy by BOTH parties for their own ends. On the processing side, the l;ast batch processed was a couple of years ago now, I read in the media (somewhere) that our government is so busy being cruel and scoring points that they have STOPPED processing refugess applications, quite contrary to the Refugee Agreement we are party to as a nation.

It's all just shameful.

[ricktas]

Perhaps we need to get out of the idea that Australia is ours:

[kaiser]

So the last couple of pages of discussion has been dominated by the above topic- is this because people have very strong views on it or that it has just been saturated into us through media? My guess is a little of both.
For the sake of clarity we shouldn't use the term asylum seeker and refugee and immigrant interchangibly, as their govt support/benefits are somewhat different:

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/98services.htm


"The Humanitarian Settlement Services (HSS) program provides early practical support to refugees and other humanitarian entrants on arrival, and throughout their initial settlement period. HSS providers work with clients to assess and identify their needs and deliver a tailored package of services to meet those needs. Not all clients will require or receive all services available under the HSS program. The department expects that most HSS clients will have reached their initial settlement outcomes within 6–12 months after arrival.

Services provided under the HSS program could include meeting clients when they arrive, help finding suitable accommodation, initial orientation and a package of basic household goods such as simple furnishings, linen, some white goods and kitchen equipment. HSS clients may also be assisted to register with Centrelink, Medicare, health services, banking and schools. The HSS program also features an onshore orientation program to assist clients understand Australian society, laws and culture.

Refugees and other humanitarian entrants may also be referred to migrant resource centres and organisations funded under the Settlement Grants Program (SGP). These programs help newly arrived refugees become self-reliant and participate in the Australian community as soon as possible. In addition, Complex Case Support (CCS) delivers specialised and intensive case management services to refugees and other humanitarian entrants whose needs extend beyond the scope of the HSS program and SGP."

And this...


"Asylum seekers in Australia are not eligible to receive financial assistance through Centrelink. In response to the needs of asylum seekers, the Asylum Seekers Assistance Scheme (ASAS) was created in 1992 by the Australian Government to address Australia's obligations under the United Nations 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees.
See: Fact Sheet 62 – Assistance for Asylum Seekers in Australia

More recently, in 2009 after the success of the Community Care Pilot, the department established the Community Assistance Support (CAS) Program to provide health and welfare assistance to highly vulnerable clients while they are actively progressing and resolving their immigration status. Clients are required to hold a Bridging visa that is in effect and must meet specific vulnerability criteria. The services under CAS include access to a departmental case manager as well as support through contracted service providers.
See: Fact Sheet 64 – Community Assistance Support

Asylum seekers who are found to be owed protection are granted protection visas under the Humanitarian Program and are generally eligible for the same services as other newly arrived refugees.

From 1 July 2012, humanitarian clients who arrived as an Irregular Maritime Arrival (IMA) and formerly held a Bridging visa E for greater than 6 months are not eligible for all services under the HSS program."

I also beleive this issue has been used as a political tool and distraction for too long.

It all boils down to the fact that we are just another species living on this planet and we will do what we have to do to try and ensure our survival. As resources and farmable land decline and populations increase- people are obviously going to migrate to survive. We are a sizeable land mass with a tiny (in comparison) population, a weak government and a generally weak population- made lazy and soft by our "advancement" in technology. Full of sooks and whingers and armchair experts but few prepared to do the hard work. Down the track when things get a bit more frantic I think our ability to 'stop' anything would be a proverbial "p!$$ in the wind".

I'm all for accepting asylum seekers and refugees- if they genuinely intend to contribute to society by seeking employment (if fit to do so) and that they have regard to our laws that relate to basic decency (theft, rape, assault, murder etc). I hesitated to write "respect all our laws" because there are a lot of laws we have that defy logic or common sense

Our prisons are already full- and as pointed out- those residents in prison are already treated better than our aging population in nursing homes.

...and yes, there are a lot of Australians who do not seek employment or abide by laws of common decency too.

When I think of all these full prisons- I see a lot of potential free labour being wasted. Surely hard, manual labour all day is a better punishment than what's currently in place. Bring back the chain gangs- I dont think anyone would object to having roadworks and other public works completed quicker and for less taxpayer money.

[Steve Axford]

The only country I have seen chain gangs in is Myanmar, in 2000. I guess the Myanmar junta did not care what people thought of them then, but I bet they don't have chain gangs now. It does not create a good impression.

[WhoDo]

It does not create a good impression.

Typical Form vs. Function argument. Who cares what "impression" is created (Form) if the fear of hard labour (something most criminals assiduously avoid) cuts the number of prisoners and the work they do contributes to the society (Function) they have tried to abuse in some way or other?

True, the name "chain gang" evokes images of America's dusty roads with prisoners chained together in the 100+F heat, etc. The fact is that building infrastructure is expensive to the point that much of it is now crumbling into ruin. Why not tap that lazy labour of our prisons to have convicts give something back to society other than laundered sheets and towels? Heck, they don't even make licence plates these days!

Allowing prisoners to sit on the butts all day watching TV running on State-provided electricity, wearing State-provided clothing and eating State-provided food while whinging about State-provided amenities is a total waste of resources on those who don't deserve them, IMHO. If prisons are unpleasant places it's likely because the population have nothing better to do while they're on holiday at our expense!

[Duane Pipe]

I think Prisoners have access to foxtel too Waz, They should be treated like they were a century ago Give them a good flogging... I purchased a house in government housing area and what a disgrace our own people leave them in. They would burn the fence palings in 44g drums in the front yard while drinking grog. I would hate to see the interior and would rather see people more deserving in them. I know where the Sudanese refugees are housed and they to look after what they have.

We have lost 10000 permanent jobs in the last month We can't keep going like this! I would put the unemployed to work in government ran factories with a roster of 1 week on 1 week off, that way its not slave labour and we could produce a few cheap products for export and cheaper Australian made goods.

Would that help with our economy

- - - Updated - - -

Another thought. God help me lol... I have not seen a refugee at work in my community since when they were first settled and took the white mans jobs as Trolly pushers in our local plaza, since then I have not seen any employed.. No shit! They walk the streets the same as our unemployed and seem to drive Vehicles that are out of our unemployed's reach. The government talks shit Kaiser..

[Steve Axford]

Typical Form vs. Function argument. Who cares what "impression" is created (Form) if the fear of hard labour (something most criminals assiduously avoid) cuts the number of prisoners and the work they do contributes to the society (Function) they have tried to abuse in some way or other?

True, the name "chain gang" evokes images of America's dusty roads with prisoners chained together in the 100+F heat, etc. The fact is that building infrastructure is expensive to the point that much of it is now crumbling into ruin. Why not tap that lazy labour of our prisons to have convicts give something back to society other than laundered sheets and towels? Heck, they don't even make licence plates these days!

Allowing prisoners to sit on the butts all day watching TV running on State-provided electricity, wearing State-provided clothing and eating State-provided food while whinging about State-provided amenities is a total waste of resources on those who don't deserve them, IMHO. If prisons are unpleasant places it's likely because the population have nothing better to do while they're on holiday at our expense!

I think you will find that most people do care about the impression they create, particularly our politicians, who would have to pass the laws for chain gangs.
Next is the idea that cheap unskilled labour would make building our roads cheap. Have you researched what it takes to build a major road? Prison labour isn't going to make it cheaper.

[kaiser]

I think you will find that most people do care about the impression they create, particularly our politicians, who would have to pass the laws for chain gangs.
Next is the idea that cheap unskilled labour would make building our roads cheap. Have you researched what it takes to build a major road? Prison labour isn't going to make it cheaper.

Too many bleeding hearts and people worried about what is the "politically correct" way to do things. If only we could live in the Utopia where everyone holds hands and gets along. The only reason today's politicians care about the impression they create- is because they are worried about their own position of power and healthy income.

The forced labor could be implemented in a way that still upheld basic human rights, it doesnt have to automatically have people thinking that we've reverted back to slavery. Perhaps prisoners may even volunteer for roles. Shockingly too- maybe some of them have a trade background or laboring skills? How about other essential tasks like clearing rubbish, mowing, shovelling, sweeping, hosing, removing grafitti etc etc.

Such a system has its problems with logistics, security etc which would need to be worked through.
However even if the idea is just a thought- i'll stand on that side of the fence any day as opposed to losing sleep about how others may perceive me.
Perhaps if judges consistently followed through with tougher sentencing instead of worrying about setting precedents that would upset the bleeding hearts, we might have more of a deterrent. How frustrating it must be for our police to do all the legwork on cases only to have a sentence watered down or an offender get off on some ridiculous technicality of our antiquated law.

It also doesnt help that we've become so obsessed with being PC and to be seen as doing the right thing- that criminals rights sometimes overshadow the victims of the crime.

Society has become so worried about being PC that its watered down our Justice system.

[Mark L]

.......
The forced labor could be implemented in a way that still upheld basic human rights, ..........

And then there'd probably be more (inadequate) benefits having to be paid out to more unemployed people. If the works there to be done, pay people to do it.
But then I forgot, those on the dole don't want to work!

[WhoDo]

I think you will find that most people do care about the impression they create, particularly our politicians, who would have to pass the laws for chain gangs.

Peer pressure is a terrible thing, isn't it? What ever happened to people being willing to take the unpopular position if they strongly believed it was the right one?

Next is the idea that cheap unskilled labour would make building our roads cheap. Have you researched what it takes to build a major road? Prison labour isn't going to make it cheaper.

It doesn't have to be road building. What about road maintenance? How many country roads in particular are potholed beyond recognition as roads? There must be a way to get some return on the enormous expense of feeding, clothing, housing and entertaining criminals, surely?

And then there'd probably be more (inadequate) benefits having to be paid out to more unemployed people. If the works there to be done, pay people to do it.
But then I forgot, those on the dole don't want to work!

I used to supervise a scheme that was loosely termed "Work for the Dole". We would take outdated computer systems, rebuild or repair them, load free (Linux) software on them and donate them to charity. Some of the early refugee programs were also recipients of those donations. I was conscious that it was important for the self esteem of the participants that they NOT be seen as cheap slave labour. For that reason every participant was given the opportunity to build a PC for their own use, so they could search and apply for jobs using the Internet. They were also taught valuable skills in computer maintenance and repair, which were in short supply at the time, so helping to equip them for the job market.

We treated the work environment as a sort of "commune", too. We would buy cheap drinks for participants to purchase during their day at significantly reduced prices, all the while accumulating a small profit from those purchases to be used to supply a "free" BBQ meal for them every Friday. No-one was excluded, regardless of whether or not they purchased drinks, too.

Where is that program now? Beats me. The organisation I worked for held 50% of all WfD funding in the Hunter, but lost ALL of its contracts at the 2007 funding round. I haven't seen a single WfD program in operation since! The chief complaint (from those "bleeding hearts" no doubt) was that it made participants feel they were being "used" as unpaid labour and sapped their self-esteem. I wonder if they bothered to ask the participants who successfully graduated from the program, rather than the whiners who didn't want to work for their dole payments?

Bottom line: It doesn't matter whether we are discussing people who are genuinely out of work or prisoners of the state, we need to STOP WASTING RESOURCES because some PC bleeding heart thinks they know better what is best for humanity! The biggest thing these programs offer is an avenue to self-respect for ALL involved. As for "paying" them to work, aren't we already "paying" them NOT to work? Get rid of the NOT in the system and benefits will flow freely in BOTH directions! JMHO of course.