Trying to sort out fact from fiction re: camera purchase

[Dazz1]

I would say keep saving and expand your budget.

2 wines later - yes, I probably should. Impulse buying is never a good thing.

[ameerat42]

Thanks, Rick and I very much agree, but a mere thanks note would not have said that. This Wetpixels needs something good and bitey to start with.
Am.

[Dazz1]

Thanks, Rick and I very much agree, but a mere thanks note would not have said that. This Wetpixels needs something good and bitey to start with.
Am.

Yea, ok, message received

[arthurking83]

AK: I believe Nikon has moved to a truly lossless compression as of the D3 generation ie. zero loss of data. At least that's true of camera categories such as the D700 that I own. I must admit I haven't checked the lower end models to see if lossless compression is available.
Maybe you're thinking of the very minute difference between 14 and 12 bit ADC?
But either way as has been mentioned, its all technicalities and pragmatically speaking there's really nothing worth worrying about.

Yep the difference between 12 and 14 bit is also in the highlights too, but I've read(not experienced) that some pros tend to find a bit of difference between 12 and 14 bit, even tho it's claimed that the human eye can't perceive this difference either.
But according to Thom, compressed NEF is compression again at the highlight end .. I suppose in a similar vein to the difference between 12 and 14 bit.

I know nothing of lossless compression, as I've never used it. I think this is where the analogy made earlier in the thread about zip file compression makes sense.
Lossless compression(I suspect) is like zip file compression where the data is literally 'zipped up' a bit then un zipped at some point.
Compressed NEF tho is probably akin to an analogy with MP3 .. where you can compress more and more(eg. 192kbps or 312kbps) .. so the question is like can you differentiate between a 192kbps mp3 and a 312kbps mp3 file.

I know that some later gen Nikon cameras don't offer lossless compressed raw, and others offer lossless compressed as as well as compressed(which implies lossy compressed).

But the main point on this topic has been said many times .. it's unlikely that almost all photographers will ever see the real differences between all these raw formats anyhow, and I wouldn't base my decision on a camera purchase on this specification.


Re: Whodo's reply. The main difference between a D7000 and a D7100 would be if you got heavily into macro photography(same deal with a D800 vs say a D700 or D600).
This is where those extra pixels count. For almost all other photography types, the extra pixels are superfluous if you don't print large(or crop heavily).
I'm not a believer in cropping and rarely do it .. but wildlife photographer usually have no other choice sometimes.

But I have got heavily into macro of late(but very little time to indulge, and from what I've seen(and many times, read too) is that extension tubes are not always the best way to get highly detailed macro images.
Lenses are usually optimised for a specific range of magnification(and what a macro tube allows you to do is to magnify the power of the lens where it otherwise can't.

As an example, I have Nikon's 105/1.8 and whilst it can produce very good, detailed and sharp images natively and with a very short extension ring, adding more extension doesn't give you better images.
it gives you higher magnification, and the image may appear more detailed, but at the pixel peeping, level the detail is not as good with the very short extension ring.
What this means is that with this 105/1.8 I can crop to 100% pixel level with good detail with the 14mm extension tube, but if I try (say) 100mm of extension, the images look good if the entire image is displayed, but at the pixel level the images are much softer .. cropping is then not an option.
The conclusion is that while the 105/1.8 is a great lens, it's a dreadful macro lens!
But!! .... there are some lenses that turn out to work really well as macro lenses even if this isn't what they were supposed to do. eg. the 50/1.8 AF-D (and it's relatives).

What annoys me about this lens is that it's so numerous that they should sell on ebay for about $50ish or less .. but for some inexplicable reason, they seem to sell for almost the cost a a new one! .. same with the old E model.
Pricing has been insane for such a cheapo lens.

I have a couple more cheapies coming that I'm hoping will end up working ok as macro non macro lenses .. and there is a fair amount of info available as to what's good, and what's not.


Going with your implied financial constraints, if you can pickup a D3200(for now) with it's 24Mp, this can be a good start to getting some images(which is really the important part in photography) with the ability to then delve into macro photography with usable gear .. and with minimal further investment(and I mean $20-50 lenses).
But you will need a general purpose all round niceguy lens that gets you good images at a cheap price(that's why I suggested the 18-105VR).

Just a final word on the D3200(as there may be some out there with less interest in such a low end camera).
A highly respected and professional photographer uses this camera very heavily for macro images. The camera tho is heavily modded for a specific purpose tho, and (I guess) his reasoning for using the D3200 as opposed to a D5200 or D7100 was purely on the cost factor. I'm assuming that he cared not for any of the extra features of the higher spec cameras and purely wanted the 24Mp sensor's ability to capture detail.
To say that he is proficient at capturing high quality images, with this lowly of cameras, is an understatement of massive proportions! And sometimes with pretty basic lenses too boot!



As for impulse buying!!! LOL!..... that's where the fun is for me.
I suppose I could be accused of a massive burst of impulse buying over the past couple of weeks. One stupid stuff up, tho that cost me $14 to rectify .. but again, it's all part of the fun too.

[Mathy]

Hey WP, have a look on this forum for images shot with the Nikon D7000, plus check out some other forums (e.g.., Nikonians). This is a great camera, that will give you plenty of room to learn, and secondhand will fit into your budget. A major step up from your current camera. Not the latest technology, but, I reiterate, go and look at the images this camera can produce. I feel it would be a good camera to move into, put some money into good glass along the way, learn how to use it, then trade the body up, keep your glass, and hey presto. I'm offering this opinion given that I bought a D3200 - lots of megapixels is not necessarily a great thing unless one is very experienced, I'm often wondering if I'd have been better off buying the D7000, but I thought I'd better buy the latest technology, cheers Deb

[Analog6]

I an NOT a 'tech head' and have always been on a very tight budget photographically. I believe if a used camera will do all you want then why lay put more for useless (to you) bells and whistles. I started out with (All Canon) a second hand 300D in 2004, and a set of kit lenses (new in box) from ebay - from memory 35-90 and 90-300. I bought better lenses after a year or so, and a used 20D body in 2008. It was a big step up and I was delighted with it. I then went through 30D to 1DsMkIi. People say to me why not upgrade that now, but i am perfectly happy with it and it does everything I ask of it. I also have a recently purchased 40D for using with my big lens (Sigma 150-500) for surf shots. I must admit I do love the sensor clean 'whistle' on that body.
I also have medium format digital equipment, again all purchased used.
It's good that you are thinking carefully about what you want and sizing up what you need. Brand spanking new is nice but it suffers an immediate drop in value the minute you walk out the store.
have you though about hiring a camera/lens combo for the weekend and seeing if you like it?

[Dazz1]

Going with your implied financial constraints, if you can pickup a D3200(for now) with it's 24Mp, this can be a good start to getting some images(which is really the important part in photography) with the ability to then delve into macro photography with usable gear .. and with minimal further investment(and I mean $20-50 lenses).
But you will need a general purpose all round niceguy lens that gets you good images at a cheap price(that's why I suggested the 18-105VR).

Just a final word on the D3200(as there may be some out there with less interest in such a low end camera).
A highly respected and professional photographer uses this camera very heavily for macro images. The camera tho is heavily modded for a specific purpose tho, and (I guess) his reasoning for using the D3200 as opposed to a D5200 or D7100 was purely on the cost factor. I'm assuming that he cared not for any of the extra features of the higher spec cameras and purely wanted the 24Mp sensor's ability to capture detail.
To say that he is proficient at capturing high quality images, with this lowly of cameras, is an understatement of massive proportions! And sometimes with pretty basic lenses too boot!


As for impulse buying!!! LOL!..... that's where the fun is for me.
I suppose I could be accused of a massive burst of impulse buying over the past couple of weeks. One stupid stuff up, tho that cost me $14 to rectify .. but again, it's all part of the fun too.

Thanks for the advice once again.
I have been fine tuning my search/wish list for some time now, and all the above are on it. I just know, in the end, I will go a little over budget - always seem to, but that's OK. Gotta be strict with myself though. I was a little surprised that no-one seemed to think the D3100 deal was worthwhile as I was getting the impression that any of the low-end DSLRs would work well for me. Anyway, if the D3100 is off the list, so is the 1100D - that takes out the very cheapest I was looking at.

- - - Updated - - -

I an NOT a 'tech head' and have always been on a very tight budget photographically. I believe if a used camera will do all you want then why lay put more for useless (to you) bells and whistles. I started out with (All Canon) a second hand 300D in 2004, and a set of kit lenses (new in box) from ebay - from memory 35-90 and 90-300. I bought better lenses after a year or so, and a used 20D body in 2008. It was a big step up and I was delighted with it. I then went through 30D to 1DsMkIi. People say to me why not upgrade that now, but i am perfectly happy with it and it does everything I ask of it. I also have a recently purchased 40D for using with my big lens (Sigma 150-500) for surf shots. I must admit I do love the sensor clean 'whistle' on that body.
I also have medium format digital equipment, again all purchased used.
It's good that you are thinking carefully about what you want and sizing up what you need. Brand spanking new is nice but it suffers an immediate drop in value the minute you walk out the store.
have you though about hiring a camera/lens combo for the weekend and seeing if you like it?

I had noted the lack of canon recommendations, so thanks for replying about them. I have 550D/600D/650D on my list at the moment. Possible also 50D/60D from the mid-range level.

[Dazz1]

Just to let you know, after balancing all the criteria and budget and suggestions, my short list is now...

Canon 600D
Nikon D5100

Reasons for Canon 600D include the feel of it in my hand, and the ability to run Magic Lantern firmware. Reasons for Nikon are that more people seem to favour Nikon, but really, there's so little to choose between them, for me, that it really depends on what deal (price/lenses) I find.

Also acceptable would be 550D or D3200, except they don't have swivel/tilt view screens, which I decided I like. At the right price though, I could live without it.

So now, saving pocket money, and waiting.

[Mark L]

Have found the "swivel/tilt view screens" more useful than I thought it would be.
Feel in your hand is so important IMHO.
"Reasons for Nikon are that more people seem to favour Nikon". More people who replied favoured them. Maybe the others were out taking photos.
http://www.ausphotography.net.au/for...-Brand-Poll:):

[Dazz1]

Have found the "swivel/tilt view screens" more useful than I thought it would be.
Feel in your hand is so important IMHO.
"Reasons for Nikon are that more people seem to favour Nikon". More people who replied favoured them. Maybe the others were out taking photos.
http://www.ausphotography.net.au/for...-Brand-Poll:):

Interesting. Yes, thanks for that.

[Pixley]

Just wanted to add that the Sigma 17-70 is an alternative to a kit lens that you could consider - has macro capability (although not true 1:1) and 2.8 at its widest and can be picked up second hand quite cheaply. Comes in both a Canon and Nikon mount depending on who you go with.

[Hayaku]

Something to consider. Twin lens kits give you a lot of focal lengths to choose from, 18-250 for canon and 18-300 for nikon I think. I have met some people though who regret that kit because they feel that it is a pain to change lenses constantly. Also consider if you need the really long focal lengths. The 18-105mm of nikon or the 18-135 of canon may be all you really need for most of your pics. A single lens with decent capabilities also has an advantage in that you only need to bring one lens if you use it while traveling to another country. Regarding Nikon models, you may want to get a d7000 at least. I don't know for sure but there are some lenses that will only work for specific models and the d7000 should work with everything For example, a 50mm f1.8g is around $240 while f1.8d $150 is around . The G works for all models I think while the D will not work in some way for other cams. Any Nikon users who can help with this? I shoot canon...

[arthurking83]

......
"Reasons for Nikon are that more people seem to favour Nikon". More people who replied favoured them. Maybe the others were out taking photos.
......

LOL!

Feel definitely is probably the single most important aspect of any hand held device to take into consideration.

But don't let statistics fool you! ... more folks owning stuff doesn't necessarily mean it's better!
(Magic Lantern sounds good tho! .. and FWIW there is a small group of hackers working on similar sort of stuff for Nikon cameras)

And what Hayaku says can be important in some ways.

a disadvantage in owning an AF-S focusing only Nikon camera is that you do get slightly restricted with manual only focusing if you don't have AF-S type lenses .. but these are the norm now, not the exception. And in many respects the better lenses to have anyhow. In days gone by when the popular lenses like 50mm's and 35mm's ... etc, in Nikon land, were all non AF-S types.
Given the choice of an AF-D lens vs an AF-S type lens .. I'd take the AF-S lens any day!

Also on the topic of advantages, one advantage of having a non motorised Nikon body over the more elite versions with built in focus motors, is a more complete lens compatibility history.

Way back in about '77 or so, Nikon changed their lens designs a bit, and basically made the older lenses incompatible with newer bodies. But they had a conversion service for those that wanted their older incompatible lenses converted to work with newer cameras(which they had to be to work).
This lens type is known as the non Ai lens. All lenses after this are called Ai or AiS. (the Ai type all work with modern cameras).
The converted non Ai lenses may be called Ai'ed. You see them for sale on various places, all relatively cheap, and many of them ripper lenses .. but full manual stuff.

Because of the design of the non motorised Nikon cameras, they can accept non Ai lenses, where other higher level Nikon cameras (mostly) can't.
So you can mount a non Ai lens onto a D5200 level (or lower) camera without damage to the camera. These non Ai lenses can be found for as little as $10 or $20 on ebay.

[Dazz1]

Thanks Arthur. Yes access to cheap lenses is certainly a plus.

[Kym]

Thanks Arthur. Yes access to cheap lenses is certainly a plus.

has this in spades

[mechawombat]

As someone who started with the Sony a350. I say get a Nikon 5100 or 3200.

The 18-105VR nikkor is my least used lens on my D7000. With the plasticky "kit" 55-300mm NikkorVR the most used. However I retained alot of my glass for my Sony. Not Sony lenses ( they were rubbish ) but lots of old A mount Minolta which will be used on my A65 (when eglobal deliver it next week) which are sharper than all my new nikon glass and cost me less than 1 of my nikon lenses combined.

but as Kym put it Pentax has so much cheap glass! and the bodies are pretty good too!

[arthurking83]

I suppose my next comments will be dependent on the type of person you are, but there are ... 'handling' problems with the likes of many Canon, Nikon(and maybe other??) bodies at the lower end of the scale.

But this may not apply to you, so it's more of a bit of an FYI, rather than something to worry about.
If you know your stuff well, and know exactly how to set the exposure parameters for the camera lens combo at the time of exposure, then this also will not worry you in any way.

But having an camera body with twin control dials could become an important point to consider. That is, one control dial for shutter, and the other for aperture settings.
(on Nikon's they're called Command and Sub Command wheels/dial/control).

Almost all DSLRs will have at least the one, bu the importance of having both shouldn't be underestimated.
I've tried to use a D40x, D5100 and D3200(and probably some other consumer grade models too .. just can't remember them all) .. but having had cameras with both command wheels and having gone to models with only the main command dial(thumb) .. has made me realise just how important that sub command dial can be!
On my personal cameras the rear(Command) is always the shutter) and the front(Sub Command) is always the Aperure controls.
The main point on the importance that these controls play is for metering control and or easy manual control.
These consumer models I've had a chance to play with have been friends or relatives or total strangers just needing a third hand, but the problem is always the same .. a lack of control!
I had my brother's D5100 for about a week or so, and it basically drove me nuts!
I kept forgetting that it didn't have the Sub Command dial, and I'd find myself fumbling to find the right control to vary something or other.

They are capable cameras, there's no doubting that, and comparing the D5100 to the D300 in terms of total image quality is a no brainer ... D5100 wins easily in image quality terms. But to own(for me) is a total reversal of experience. I'd prefer the 'inferior' IQ of the D300 for the sake of having the control layout of the higher end camera.

I realise that finances weigh in heavily here, but the D7000 may end up the better long term option. But this totally depends on your preference for controlling your devices yourself.

The more I think about it, the more something like the Pentax K5 sounds like a better option overall. You could possibly find a S/H one quite cheap.
Plenty of old M42 mount lenses available ..... although in saying this, you can get an M42 to Nikon F mount adapter and use these lenses on your Nikon/Canon/etc too.(that's what I do).

[Dazz1]

The 18-105VR nikkor is my least used lens on my D7000. With the plasticky "kit" 55-300mm NikkorVR the most used.

Yes, I read somewhere that the kit lens weren't all that bad. This is good news for someone on a budget . It means I can start getting decent photos right away, while I consider the first separate lens purchase.

- - - Updated - - -

I suppose my next comments will be dependent on the type of person you are, but there are ... 'handling' problems with the likes of many Canon, Nikon(and maybe other??) bodies at the lower end of the scale.

But this may not apply to you, so it's more of a bit of an FYI, rather than something to worry about.
If you know your stuff well, and know exactly how to set the exposure parameters for the camera lens combo at the time of exposure, then this also will not worry you in any way.

But having an camera body with twin control dials could become an important point to consider. That is, one control dial for shutter, and the other for aperture settings.
(on Nikon's they're called Command and Sub Command wheels/dial/control).

Almost all DSLRs will have at least the one, bu the importance of having both shouldn't be underestimated.
I've tried to use a D40x, D5100 and D3200(and probably some other consumer grade models too .. just can't remember them all) .. but having had cameras with both command wheels and having gone to models with only the main command dial(thumb) .. has made me realise just how important that sub command dial can be!

I remember back when I had a old fully manual 35mm film Practica camera, then I remember when I upgraded to a Pentax film camera (a Program A I think it was called). I enjoyed using aperture or shutter priority mostly, and only occasionally needing full manual. With the added flexibility of setting the ISO, and automatic aperture bracketing, in digital cameras, I am think this will be less of an issue for me.

I am watching the market, and I think I mentioned before, a LOT depends on what deal pops up. I am sure I will happy with most of the cameras being discussed.

The market is strange though. I see people asking greater than new prices for secondhand cameras. I am not comparing to grey market either. Prices must have fallen drastically and a lot of people are over estimating what a camera is worth when selling it after a few years. Looking at completed eBay listings is educational. There are many of these overpriced auctions that don't succeed, but there are also some bargains.

That said, I place a lot of value in buying from a real store, with real support and warranty.

[arthurking83]

......

The market is strange though. I see people asking greater than new prices for secondhand cameras. I am not comparing to grey market either. Prices must have fallen drastically and a lot of people are over estimating what a camera is worth when selling it after a few years. Looking at completed eBay listings is educational. There are many of these overpriced auctions that don't succeed, but there are also some bargains.

That said, I place a lot of value in buying from a real store, with real support and warranty.

LOL! seen this and been there. Some folks asking for ludicrous prices re some gear thinking that their stuff doesn't stink or something!

Have had eyes on a particularly old Nikon lens for a long time now, both on ebay and via a couple of stores.
At the reputable stores these lenses sell (in excellent condition) for about $50-60, and many sellers on ebay are wanting in the $100 range!
It's just idiotic .. and this is a (generally) non compatible lens for most Nikon cameras(without modding that is).

Patience is my middle name, and I've held off from buying stuff(on ebay) for well over 12 months ..... watching for the right item to come up at the right price.

[Sdison]

I'll jump in late, but get the D5100. It's got the same sensor as the D7000 and I was oh-so-close to impulse buying that over the D7000 not too long ago. I doubt Canon can match the sensor's quality in the same price range, although I'm happy to have someone prove me wrong.

It sounds like the D7000 might just be beyond you in terms of cost, which is unfortunate because it's a great camera (certainly far beyond me at the moment!).

One option from left field is the Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-f/4, which eGlobal has for about 400 clicks. It has a macro capability as well as a fairly fast, albeit variable, aperture and a good zoom range, which should keep you happy until you start to find exactly what you want to specialise in. You can check out some sample shots from the lens here.