Duck Season

[I @ M]

But our society would not work without cars and trucks. It would function quite well without duck hunters.

Perhaps you need to be a little more introspective with that comment Steve as to me it appears to be a totally one sided off the cuff statement indicating that perhaps just because you feel duck hunting is a waste of time the world would get along fine without them.

Maybe consider that everything in society has a place, you feel that the abolition of cars and trucks would cause our society to fail and yes, I agree that modern day transport is necessary, after all we wouldn't want to go back to horses and carts. Those cars and trucks keep a largish percentage of society gainfully employed right from the manufacture of them through the maintenance and repairs to the drivers of commercial vehicles. Of course the spin offs from that transport also include those who make a living from people being able to reach their holiday destination by a car or bus or whatever so they play a part in the overall society.

I will put it to you that duck hunters also play a part in society by keeping firearms and ammunition construction sales and maintenance people employed, boosting revenue for accommodation venues near duck hunting areas etc.

No, society won't crash because of the end of duck hunting but those who rely on such activities to earn a living will feel the pinch from the lack of revenue.

After all aren't they part of society?

[Wayne63]

Duck season was banned in 1995 in NSW, up to then I used to shoot ducks in season for my own consumption. Myself and a mate would go out on a Saturday morning and once we had 6 between us would go home and prepare them for our families Sunday roast. I did't (Don't) see any problem with that at all but as mentioned above there are always idiots that will ruin it for everyone else. mmm how I miss the taste of them too.

[ROA44]

I do support the culling of animals. within Australia we have a large number of imported Flora & Fauna which are decimating this country killing and sending to extinction our native wildlife EG pigs, horses, goats, cats, rats and that's with out starting on the flora. The only reason we do not see the implementation of effective programs to eradicate these unwanted animals in this country is because governments are scared of minority group votes and money paid to them. the failure of governments to allow these types of programs to be implemented is far worse than a few people going out and killing a few non native ducks. Yes I do understand the injuries & suffering caused to some that are not killed, but surely this pales into insignificance what is happening throughout this and many other countries purely because governments are afraid and so called do gooders think it just isn't nice. Well they are my opinions and many will object but this is a reality that some in society need to come to terms with and get off their pedestals and face The killing of animals may not be nice but there are a lot of other things in our society that are not nice either and governments are not facing up to those responsibilities either. Anyway that's enough from me I know this is not a soap box forum but a photography forum which I really enjoy being a part of and when I get a proper handle on posting photos and time to take them I will enjoy even more.thank you for reading and bye for now.

[Granville]

Anyway that's enough from me I know this is not a soap box forum but a photography forum .......

Actually, it's the Out of Focus forum so you can soap box to your hearts content.

I will always support the culling of animals, except humans, that are not native to this country. I don't shoot, haven't got a gun, but when I fish I target predmoininatly carp (if I want to contribute to a clean up of a river or lake) redfin, and trout.

[Steve Axford]

Perhaps you need to be a little more introspective with that comment Steve as to me it appears to be a totally one sided off the cuff statement indicating that perhaps just because you feel duck hunting is a waste of time the world would get along fine without them.

Maybe consider that everything in society has a place, you feel that the abolition of cars and trucks would cause our society to fail and yes, I agree that modern day transport is necessary, after all we wouldn't want to go back to horses and carts. Those cars and trucks keep a largish percentage of society gainfully employed right from the manufacture of them through the maintenance and repairs to the drivers of commercial vehicles. Of course the spin offs from that transport also include those who make a living from people being able to reach their holiday destination by a car or bus or whatever so they play a part in the overall society.

I will put it to you that duck hunters also play a part in society by keeping firearms and ammunition construction sales and maintenance people employed, boosting revenue for accommodation venues near duck hunting areas etc.

No, society won't crash because of the end of duck hunting but those who rely on such activities to earn a living will feel the pinch from the lack of revenue.

After all aren't they part of society?

No, I think the comment was well considered. I would have thought that my statement was quite obvious and was in response to Rick's comment that cars and guns both kill. I was just pointing out that we needed cars and we don't really need duck hunters. I am not a rabid anti-hunter and I have hunted myself and used to shoot quite a lot when I was younger, but I do think that hunting in general needs to be well controlled as a minority of idiots can do a lot of damage and we know that guns can be used for other purposes apart from duck hunting. I can see how some farmers do need guns at times, but I don't see the need to promote their use in hunting ducks, which are native animals I believe. I am certainly open to arguments that there should be some licence to continue in some areas, but the argument that it is good fun and supports a very few individuals in gun maintenance and tourism doesn't really cut it.
Just my opinions, but I thought we were entitled to them provided we kept things above the belt?

[I @ M]

Just my opinions, but I thought we were entitled to them provided we kept things above the belt?

I can't see any indication that anyone here thinks that you aren't entitled to your opinion. That comment rather mystifies me.

I am not a rabid anti-hunter and I have hunted myself and used to shoot quite a lot when I was younger, but I do think that hunting in general needs to be well controlled as a minority of idiots can do a lot of damage and we know that guns can be used for other purposes apart from duck hunting.

I am not a rabid anti hunter and conversely I am not a massively pro free for all hunting lobbyist, there are far more stringent measures in place these days than there ever have been in the past regarding duck hunting and hunting in general with regard to firearms ownership and usage. Yes, there are a minority of idiots that do go duck hunting, the ratio of idiots to those who use common sense is probably well in line with the rest of society who engage in other practises. Your bit about "can do a lot of damage" is rather vague, I have seen minority idiot groups without firearms that "can do a lot of damage" and yes, there are plenty of examples from both groups on public display. Shot road side signs are an obvious example, just as trashed telephone booths, rocks dropped onto cars from freeway overpasses and vandalised public transport are glaringly obvious non firearm related idiot acts.
Yes, firearms can be used for other things, starting to veer off the topic of duck hunting here, just as baseball bats can be used to perform other tasks that to hit a home run or knives can be used for purposes other than to slice rump steak. Which of those 3 items get used inappropriately the most?

and supports a very few individuals in gun maintenance and tourism doesn't really cut it.

Ok, those who do maintain their lifestyle from revenue earned from duck hunting aren't valid members of society and do not deserve to make a living the way they do.

Is that what you are saying?

Our way of life generally tells us to regard those who work hard in lawful industries as bastions of society.

The duck season in this little corner of Victoria is regarded by local traders, supermarket, hotels, bait and tackle shops and the caravan and camping parks as a much needed part of their annual income stream. The effects of the money spent in pursuit of a lawful activity reach far further than just "the few individuals" that you seem to want to deem as not a worthy part of society.

[Bear Dale]

The duck season in this little corner of Victoria is regarded by local traders, supermarket, hotels, bait and tackle shops and the caravan and camping parks as a much needed part of their annual income stream. The effects of the money spent in pursuit of a lawful activity reach far further than just "the few individuals" that you seem to want to deem as not a worthy part of society.

I think so many people miss this viable point.



I regards to cars....well around 17,000 people died on Australian roads in the last 10 years. Add to this the permanently maimed imjured and then the people that were only temporarily injured and the cost to society of these deaths and injuries. I wouldn't hesitate to say that a lot of these deaths and injuries were directly related to idiots either over the alcohol limit or through speeding or other reckless driving behaviour.

[Steve Axford]

I can't see any indication that anyone here thinks that you aren't entitled to your opinion. That comment rather mystifies me.

Which probably makes us even as your comment about me needing to more introspective mystified me. What did you mean by that?

As for your defence of the duck hunting economy. Well, provided the downside isn't greater than the benefit, then let it go on, but if the downside is greater than the benefit then let's stop it. That's for the people to decide. I tend towards saying no because I believe the downside is greater than the benefit. You don't. Fair enough, but why get so worked up about it? Sure, there are other idiots out there, and they are usually stopped by passing laws to stop them. I've used the example of 4wds on beaches and I could mention trail bikes in national parks, or drunks starting fights in streets at night. In those cases, there is often a public outcry and laws are passed, which sometimes effect responsible people. But that's democracy, isn't it?
I'll try to reply to the comments about gun control which you accuse me of raising, but I just made a passing comment which seemed reasonable as duck hunting very much requires guns. Yes, baseball bats and knives can be used for other things as well as guns, but guns are designed to kill, knives and baseball bats are not, nor do they do it nearly as effectively. If you look at the stats for deaths due to guns in Oz, it is about 230 per year. Most of these are suicides, with only about 30 being murders. Unlike countries with a gun culture (eg Sth Africa or the USA) knives are more frequently used as a murder weapon in OZ (about 90), probably because most people don't have a gun. By the way, Sth Africa has at least 15,000 gun homicides per year. Anyway, as you say, this is a bit off subject.

As for being vague about the damage that someone with a gun can do, I do apologise. Let me be more specific. They can shoot native animals, they can shoot domestic animals, they can shoot themselves and each other, they can make the area that they shoot in uninhabitable for anyone else. I wouldn't suggest that the responsible shooter does this, but you wondered what the idiots can do.

One last thing. I would prefer it if you would just read what I said rather than rephrase it as something completely different. No, I am not saying that anyone isn't a valid or worthy member of society.

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I think so many people miss this viable point.



I regards to cars....well around 17,000 people died on Australian roads in the last 10 years. Add to this the permanently maimed imjured and then the people that were only temporarily injured and the cost to society of these deaths and injuries. I wouldn't hesitate to say that a lot of these deaths and injuries were directly related to idiots either over the alcohol limit or through speeding or other reckless driving behaviour.

I agree about cars, but we continue to improve in that area. In 1970 there was 3,798 road deaths and in 2011 there was 1,291. It has been steadily going down as we put more resources into it - short of banning all cars and trucks. I have had several friends, a wife and a son die in cars, so I do see the need to keep working at it.

[I @ M]

Steve, my comment was merely my opinion that you should perhaps look a little deeper into your thoughts on the matter --- introspective --- as I felt that you may be biased in your views on the subject. Sure you can have thoughts and opinions, just like everyone else but please don't take my thoughts and opinions as an attack or "getting worked up over it" as I definitely try to take a balanced view of things.

I don't see your thoughts of passing laws to stop idiot acts as having a great deal of merit, there are laws in place to dissuade people from committing idiot acts but they still keep carrying out those acts be it with a gun or a screwdriver.

If you want to throw figures about regarding instruments used in crime, I never went down the path of selecting murder, the overwhelming majority of the weapons used in assaults, whether that assault resulted in death or not was by knife attack.
Also, bear in mind, the majority of knives used in those assaults were legally owned and the vast majority of firearms used in those assaults were illegally owned and acquired. So much for laws stopping idiot acts.

After a quick look, the 2009 - 2010 Australian Institute Of Criminology figure stend to highlight those facts.

Armed robbery http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/...%7Dfacts11.pdf page 30

Murder http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/...%7Dfacts11.pdf page 18

For more figures on the relationship between the use of knives and firearms in crime a read of http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/3/F/...3%7Dtbp045.pdf is worthwhile.

Yes, I see what you mean about what idiots "can do" but that is supposition about potential. What we need are facts about how many people have shot native animals, domestic stock, each other ( facts are available ) or made places uninhabitable.
Surely we aren't going to pass laws to ban duck hunting on the basis of potential and supposition?

Or maybe that is what some people would like to see happen.

[Steve Axford]

Hi I@M,
I'll skip the copy as it just fills up space and I'll try to address 3 points. Introspection, duck hunting and the passing laws to stop idiots.

Introspection. Introspection is the examination of one's own thought processes without any input from the outside. By definition, one could not be introspective about a proposed subject (eg duck hunting) as that would involve input from the outside. Perhaps you meant that I should examine my own motives? But then that sort of statement is not usually acceptable in polite argument as it is questioning the other persons integrity, which I'm sure you did not intend.

Duck hunting. Instead of being introspective, I decided to learn a bit more about duck hunting (thank you for prompting me to do that). It seems that the major argument against it is animal cruelty. There is plenty of literature claiming a ratio of 10 kills to 6 injuries for the birds from shotgun wounds. Most injured birds will die within days or hours of the injury. Probably in great pain.
I have heard it said that ducks need to be culled, but that seems to be in doubt as the duck population has declined by 70% in the last 25 years in Victoria and that the continued dry weather has meant that this is likely to continue. So, while it may be fun for some and profitable for some others, it is likely to be unsustainable and it is cruel to the ducks.

Passing of laws to stop idiots. Road deaths have already been mentioned in this thread and they happen to be an ideal example of this. Idiots kill a lot of people on the roads. Drink driving and speeding are the two obvious examples of this. I remember when I was young when there were over 1000 road deaths in Victoria alone. Now there are only a little more in the whole of Australia. At the same time the number of cars and the number of people have both increased. How did we achieve this? By making safer cars, by education and by the passing of laws to stop idiots. Those laws include - drink driving, speeding and wearing of seat belts.

I'll skip the gun killings subject as it is a raises a whole new issue which probably neither of us want to get into at this time. My apologies for allowing that to continue.

[Rattus79]

If you're going to shoot anything, Rabbits, Pigs, Feral Cats or Cane Toads make Great Targets!

[Tikira]

I am my fathers daughter, he is the "softest" farmer in the world i think. He enjoys meat but cannot stand the thought of it being slaughtered, and never for the fun of it. He is the only sheep farmer I can think of that prefers to buy lamb rather than see the life drain out of its eyes as an animal dies at his own hands. He has never killed anything for the fun of it, and neither could I.

Is every duck shot used for food? Do they all die humanely? If the answer to these things is yes, then that is a maybe a different matter, but I know kangaroo's, rabbits, wild pigs etc do not always die immediately or humanely and are terrorised beforehand, I have seen it with my own eyes.

I am a bleeding heart, arent I?

Di

[Allie]

Here is an interesting study regarding hunters
hunter study

[I @ M]

Is every duck shot used for food? Do they all die humanely? If the answer to these things is yes, then that is a maybe a different matter, but I know kangaroo's, rabbits, wild pigs etc do not always die immediately or humanely and are terrorised beforehand, I have seen it with my own eyes.



Di

Di, please don't take it the wrong way --- but --- go and visit just about any abattoir where your local livestock is killed and you will see the same ( or less ) degree of respect paid to farm produce as any wild animal.

I think that there is a massive degree of "please don't make me think about fluffy ducks being slaughtered with shotguns" and on the other hand there is the "Damn, I enjoy a good steak and of course that is all done properly" element to the discussion amongst supposedly rational thinking human beings.

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Here is an interesting study regarding hunters
hunter study

I take my hat off to you Allie
If there was ever a post that was going to inflame the issue ( pun intended ) then that is it.

[Duane Pipe]

I haven't read the last few comments so please excuse me.....
Conserving the game population for futures recreational hunting is paramount.
I think we could do with more Ten year old's with guns to cull the Human population, Less guns more Ducks.

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What the Hell has happened to Rabbits!
Bloody poison that's what

This country is a disgrace. Take the guns off hunters and Poison the Vermin Hmf....

[ricktas]

Here is an interesting study regarding hunters
hunter study

Great, just what is needed. As well as animal rights activists out on the waterways trying to stop hunting, we also get scientists yelling 'show us your willy' at the hunters. NOICE!

[Mark L]

Great, just what is needed. As well as animal rights activists out on the waterways trying to stop hunting, we also get scientists yelling 'show us your willy' at the hunters. NOICE!

But the article says "Reaction from participants has been positive, and subjects described the results as liberating and a relief to finally be able to label their problem as a legitimate medical disorder."

[Shelley]

If you go to the birdlife (sorry, Birdlife Australia) page on facebook, you will see a photo of Red-necked Avocets recently shot by duck hunters. Pink-eared ducks, hard-heads getting slaughtered.

Most duck shooters would shoot into a group birds, of which is a mixture of different birds... my stomach turned when I saw the photo of the dead Red-necked Avocets - senseless....

[Tikira]

Totally agree IAM, but this is his livlihood, the sickening events surrounding stock slaughter really upset my Dad, and it is unforgivable. It is very hard for my father to sell his stock, he has to block out the thought of them being killed, or he would not still be on the land.

He doesn't eat steak though!

Di

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Totally agree IAM, but this is his livlihood, the sickening events surrounding stock slaughter really upset my Dad, and it is unforgivable. It is very hard for my father to sell his stock, he has to block out the thought of them being killed, or he would not still be on the land.

He doesn't eat steak though!

Di

[Allie]

Great, just what is needed. As well as animal rights activists out on the waterways trying to stop hunting, we also get scientists yelling 'show us your willy' at the hunters. NOICE!