Ethics

[Mark L]

Had a look at your local on the web, Mark. The general shots look very generic and the sports shots are very average, so it looks like a 'J' for journo might be doing them .......

A large amount of the sports photos are provided by a local pro..
The papers Real Estate section is full of terrible images also, though that would be the Agents fault (Mark puts thinking cap on, jeez that hurts).
How to be a B without being a B
Thinking out loud on AP.

[norwest]

A 'B' provides for nothing, earns nothing and sets a precedent for a continued expectation of nothing. You can be an 'A' without being full time if the product can attract payment.

There were some decent sports shots of footballers in St George like colours. Local too?

[Kym]

There is a RE agent AP member.
He joined to learn about photography ~2009 and does his own photos for his clients.
Went from a P&S to a DSLR and a 10-20 wide and an 18-55 and later some longer glass.
He has done some pretty decent landscapes as well.
I've seen his RE shots, they are very good.

Is he 'robbing' a pro tog? He is not getting paid more as a RE for the photos.

If you were selling your house and he said he would not charge for photos and that he could show how photos help sell your house what would you do:
Choose him or someone else?

[norwest]

Seeing as all the agents i know locally get their own shots for listing a home as an an acting agent and are obviously very well compensated in their commission as selling agent, perhaps more so if the shots assist in gaining a higher price, how is he providing a free service?

By the way, what's the similarity with freebies for no return or commission and/or intentionally removing income from an existing contracted other?

And, as he is the agent, he is acting for himself as part of his Re agent service when obtaining the sales shots and is free to do as he pleases, as a anyone free to choose if they shoot their own event, family, kid playing sport or use the timer and shoot themselves. So to speak.

[jasevk]

I'm not having a go here, but I think your energy would be better spent if you forgot about this thread right now and got to work on diversifying and adapting your business to the current climate. All the best.

[norwest]

I'm not having a go here, but I think your energy would be better spent if you forgot about this thread right now and got to work on diversifying and adapting your business to the current climate. All the best.

http://www.ausphotography.net.au/for...o-change-adapt

[MarkChap]

Every time I read this, I get the distinct feeling that you really have this idea that "B" robbed you of sales

By the way, what's the similarity with freebies for no return or commission and/or intentionally removing income from an existing contracted other?

He didn't, in my opinion, he didn't force the publisher to use his images, he provided images that they could use if they wanted to, if the publisher had operated as per the "agreement" they would not have used them.
So get off his back and direct your anger and malice towards those that deserve it, the publisher.

[norwest]

So get off his back

No

and direct your anger and malice towards those that deserve it,

It has

the publisher.

which includes him

[jasevk]

Norwest, you seem to be complaining alot and harboring plenty of anger ad frustration... It comes across that you're worried about the sustainability of your business. Therefore, the strategies you mention in the other thread you directed me to, may need to be revisited - are they really working?

This issue is not going away any time soon and is definitely not confined to rural areas... We're all dealing with it too... Put your blinkers on and don't fall into the trap of blowing up on your clients over it. Remember, you gave the client the option of buying only the images they want to use, rather than for your time - and they are under no obligation to buy ANYTHING from you.

You said that photographer B produced average work, so maintain your integrity and just get on with it... your client may realize this and come back to you.

[Wayne]

No



It has



which includes him

You seem to think you own the rights to be the exclusive photographer at these events, yet it seems you don't hold that right. If someone wants to give it away free of charge to your client, well tough luck for you. Deal with the fact that you have zero right to be the only photographer there, and that means anyone else can take pics and do with them as they wish regardless of whether you like that or not.

Competition is part of any business where you don't own a monopoly, and crying about it will get you nowhere. If I were person B, and you gave me a hard time, I would go out of my way by attending all I could and providing all I had free of charge in the hope you don't sell another image again.

[kiwi]

I don't think b has done anything wrong either really. He's no idea how you get paid, a lot for example get paid a flat rate to attend regardless of whether or how many pics are used, a much more certain model to move to.




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[norwest]

You seem to think you own the rights to be the exclusive photographer at these events, yet it seems you don't hold that right. If someone wants to give it away free of charge to your client, well tough luck for you. Deal with the fact that you have zero right to be the only photographer there, and that means anyone else can take pics and do with them as they wish regardless of whether you like that or not.

NO, I don't and haven't claimed or insinuated such. Sole provider of shots to the particular client for particular events was mentioned, only.

Competition is part of any business where you don't own a monopoly, and crying about it will get you nowhere. If I were person B, and you gave me a hard time, I would go out of my way by attending all I could and providing all I had free of charge in the hope you don't sell another image again

If B was a stranger whom hadn't previously befriended me, picked my brains re relationship with the client so he was aware of the ins and outs, I'd have a problem only with the client and not the stranger.

Let me tell you a story. B initially met me while I was covering and event for the client involved.
A couple of weeks later I was covering an event for a couple of private clients and the paper of the visiting team. Events in this town I usually do not cover and do not cover for the publisher because the travel, time and cost is too great. B was at this event gaining shots for the local publisher (the client in question) and i was well aware of this from prior knowledge.

I sought him out immediately to inform him of my reasons for being there and I remember the gist of the conversation went. "Thought I'd let you know out of professional courtesy so that you wouldn't think i was standing on your toes that I'm not here for the 'publisher' and have no intention of supplying any shots from this game to them as I know they are aware you're doing this for them."

Later on after an important play and score he asked if I 'got' the shot and he saw me browsing a series of shots. He commented after seeing a particular shot that 'it' would be the back page next week and that he had missed the shot. I again confirmed that regardless of the shots I get I would not be supplying any shots for the reasons I stated earlier. All was quite cordial and friendly, as is normal for two people with a similar interest, particular when one displays courtesy towards the other.

Even if i didn't feel obliged to not stand on toes out of professional courtesy, in a small community doing so would not do my reputation any favours and I'd soon be frowned upon. B is relatively new to the region after moving from the city.

I don't think b has done anything wrong either really. He's no idea how you get paid, a lot for example get paid a flat rate to attend regardless of whether or how many pics are used, a much more certain model to move to.

He was well aware of the payment method, kiwi.

[Speedway]

Stop blaming everyone else, take up your agreement (You do have it in writing don't you?) with the publisher and then do the remaining shoots you have booked. Then renegotiate your terms to a more suitable system for you both. Don't get your nose out of joint and throw away a money earner out of spite.
Keith.

[jasevk]

the meeting will serve little purpose in gaining the trust required to believe that it won't continue in the future and 'A' will likely cancel about three weeks of future bookings with the client and advise them that enough is enough.

This would be a silly move to make, if it's not already too late, I'd back peddle from this approach quickly. Completely unprofessional - you need to develop a strategy to make your client realise that you are the best option for them in the future... ADAPT!

Think about it from their perspective, in one corner you have a photographer supplying them with images for free, and possibly extremely cheaply in the future - in the other corner they have a disgruntled full time photographer with perceived entitlement issues - be aware of the direction you're taking this relationship.

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[norwest]

Two meetings were had and a further conversation while shooting an event on Saturday. I will not go into detail, however, despite frustrating efforts an agreement could not be reached that was not heavily weighted to advantage the client and all risk held by the photographer. It's one of those times when the wise thing to do is walk away.

[jasevk]

Two meetings were had and a further conversation while shooting an event on Saturday. I will not go into detail, however, despite frustrating efforts an agreement could not be reached that was not heavily weighted to advantage the client and all risk held by the photographer. It's one of those times when the wise thing to do is walk away.

When you find a business opportunity where you don't hold all the risk for its failure... Let me know - I want in.


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[norwest]

When you find a business opportunity where you don't hold all the risk for its failure... Let me know - I want in.


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As I stated a long way back in this thread, they were opportunist. The new agreement touted held no up front minimum fee, no payment for time rendered and no guarantee of sales if product supplied for free by others. The question was asked of the client if he would spend the considerable time and costs involved in conducting a requested job or jobs in the knowledge there may not be any payment for said job on it's completion. The answer was, No. The question was then asked, why he thought I'd be naive enough to do it.

Do you now see what I meant by all the risk? I didn't say it lightly, jasevk, I meant it.

[MarkChap]

The answer was, No. The question was then asked, why he thought I'd be naive enough to do it.

He thought that, because from my understanding, you signed an agreement with him to do just that ?? didn't you, did I read that back up there somewhere

[kiwi]

Simply once again free conquers good.

Take up lawn mowing I reckon.


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[enduro]

Can I get a person B to come and do my gardens and lawn?

I would also like a person B to build a small retaining wall too.