Ethics

[norwest]

He thought that, because from my understanding, you signed an agreement with him to do just that ?? didn't you, did I read that back up there somewhere

No.

Simply once again free conquers good.

Take up lawn mowing I reckon.

And seriously, who wins? Those whom profit from gaining multiple products for free? Those whom supply the products for the benefit of seeing them on butcherer's wrappings, only?

[kiwi]

Who wins ? B of course, and the paper, who loses, us....who cares....no one.


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[arthurking83]

.....



And seriously, who wins? Those whom profit from gaining multiple products for free? Those whom supply the products for the benefit of seeing them on butcherer's wrappings, only?

I suppose it's time to ask yourself the question .. does it really bother you that one party(P) is taking advantage of another party(B) and that the other party, who in this case (B) appears to be accepting of this one way arrangement?

I'm sure B is thinking to themselves that this new arrangement is exactly what they were after and that they(B) are now the main photographer that P may rely on for images of this event type.
So B may be thinking that one day soon, they'll approach P and request a certain level of remuneration, to which B will ask too much and P will offer too little and the previous P-B putsch to oust A will transpire again with a new player to enter the fray one day.

More important to me is with what alphabetisation label should we place on this impending new player?
We already have A, B and P.. how about the new person being called O, this way the new saga can be labelled the 'BOP' saga which is slightly more catchy than anything I can come up with with the original three parties(BAP, PAB being the only two that made any sense at all).
You may be able to sell the rights to this story to Channel 9(or any of it's affiliates) and they'll begin with a light news coverage on the nightly news, followed by a brief report on ACA, and then a feature length in depth enquiry via 60minutes(or the latest incarnation of that now gone program).

Finally in a year or so, they'll make the 4 part mini series movie ...

[MarkChap]

No.

NO ???

The long term agreement is to provide shots of events which are chosen by the client via website viewing of said event shots which are uploaded asap following the events. Payment is per shot provided, on a sliding scale according to quantity. (person 'A's preferred agreement after hassles with hourly rate payments)

That is from your opening post, so my guess is, yes. But that is just me

[norwest]

NO ???



That is from your opening post, so my guess is, yes. But that is just me

Then, Mark, its simply a guess.

You forgot the agreement re sole provision, or do you think it has no relevance, which btw, is the the subject of the thread?
Do you also think they would do without shots for the weeks biggest social events and sporting events ect in two published papers? I know the average quantity of shots used on a regular basis, what type of events and what occasions require most and which event articles are always accompanied by several shots. But that is just me and what would I know?

[Mojo]

...

Do you also think they would do without shots for the weeks biggest social events and sporting events ect in two published papers? I know the average quantity of shots used on a regular basis, what type of events and what occasions require most and which event articles are always accompanied by several shots.

I think you should stop wasting energy dwelling on the ethics and whatnot. It's simply not going to turn out like you want it to. Anyway, print media such as newspapers are losing their market, and will likely cease to be viable sooner than many people realise. Within a year, the publisher will be unemployed and really pissed off that his job has gone to some intenet savvy marketing specialist.

Now, if I were you..... I would:

NOT shoot myself in the foot by spitting the dummy. I would wring as much work out of the publisher as possible, and do my best to out do the hobby guy with better or different pictures. I'd retain the rights to the pics, and publish thumbnails on a website. Of course, during the event I would have taken as many pics of the individual people as I could, prefereably in their finest moments. I'd even cunningly engineer some set up pics of guests with any willing VIPs. (Some VIPs like photo ops with the common folk because it's good for their image.) I'd have the website address printed on a card, which I'd hand out willy nilly. People will order hi-res images or framed prints if they're priced reasonably. Especially the women if you use your skills to make them look good.

NEXT I'd start networking with the event managers and coordinators. Never overlook the PAs - they organise stuff! I'd negotiate to be the official event photographer. There are many remuneration arrangements that could be agreed, but the strongest case is if they get something out of it. Then at the event, make sure you get a badge or something - it will make getting photos easier.

THIS will transition you into a professional field that will outlast the hardcopy newspaper publishing business. It helps that you are in a community where you're known, and you know what goes on (I'm assuming this). I don't know any professional photographers so I don't know if this is something they do, but if local, event based photography is how you earn your living, it makes sense to adapt and look beyond the current situation.

I'm sure I'm oversimplifying, but there's no point beating the track you want to take - it goes nowhere in the long run.

[norwest]

I'm just answering questions, Mojo, with the threads original questions seeming to have been buried. The only way you can outdo a freebie re the press is to provide freebie. All done, all over and moved on.

The rest you mention is all done and has been for quite some time with the press work being only part of the whole but an appreciable part. Thanks for the comments.

[Mojo]

Ok. Like I said, I don't know much about professional photography so I apologise if I sounded like an upstart offering suggestions. I do know a reasonable amount about media convergence though, and I think you're going through a lot of angst over something that has happened, and will likely continue to happen until the medium disappears. No point in being a Gerry Harvey bleating about an unfair business situation - you have to get a step ahead and value add to compete.

[kiwi]

I'm yet to sell pics of any volume to anyone over 10

[Mark L]

An aside.

.... Anyway, print media such as newspapers are losing their market, and will likely cease to be viable sooner than many people realise. ......

norwest lives in a rural area, and from what I can see, less than quality rural "newspapers" seem to still sell very well. It's no biggy in the larger scheme of things. But it seems people outside big cities still find some community engagement via their local "newspapers".

[mikew09]

I was person B at a major horse event some time ago. I new person A and new they had be paid a min payment to attend (travel & meals) and releid on income for the weeks activites. I spoke with her and acknowledged that I would not provide any photos I took at the event to anyone with the exception the photos of my horse being evented by my daughter at the time. Didnt see any point paying for photos of my own horse.

I thnk that was fair and stuck to my word, and yes I was asked by friends to take photos for them but politely said I couldn't. I think that was fair enough.

- - - Updated - - -

I was person B at a major horse event some time ago. I new person A and new they had be paid a min payment to attend (travel & meals) and releid on income for the weeks activites. I spoke with her and acknowledged that I would not provide any photos I took at the event to anyone with the exception the photos of my horse being evented by my daughter at the time. Didnt see any point paying for photos of my own horse.

I thnk that was fair and stuck to my word, and yes I was asked by friends to take photos for them but politely said I couldn't. I think that was fair enough.

[norwest]

and stuck to my word,

.

To me, Mike, that's still the measure of a man, regardless of why or to whom you've given your word. Credit to you.

norwest lives in a rural area, and from what I can see, less than quality rural "newspapers" seem to still sell very well. It's no biggy in the larger scheme of things. But it seems people outside big cities still find some community engagement via their local "newspapers".

Agree. They love seeing whom is up to what in the local. If the country areas are as slow moving along with the rest of Australia as they usually are, local rags could be around and strong for a couple of generations yet.

[Lianne]

Sorry I am a late comer to this thread, but does the below quote mean that "A" freely advised "B" on what it would take to get "P" to break the contract.

At the very best, or worst, depending on how you want to look at it, after questions from B, A was advising him on how and what might encourage P to break their agreement with A. From experience, it was known that not a great deal of encouragement was required.

Now that is ethically interesting.

[norwest]

Now that is ethically interesting.

Perhaps you could elaborate.

[Lianne]

At the very best, or worst, depending on how you want to look at it, after questions from B, A was advising him on how and what might encourage P to break their agreement with A. From experience, it was known that not a great deal of encouragement was required.

I just find it ethically challenging that "A" would provide "B" with knowledge to encourage "P" to break a contractual agreement. Sounds like "A" was setting up "P".

1 - 'B' being well aware that 'A' earns his living from his work and is the regular photographer requested to carry out the event work orders for the particular client, but ignores this knowledge and still provides, free of charge, shots of those events for publication.

It would appear that he did not "ignore the knowledge" as you stated originally, rather he listened intently to what "A was advising him on how and what might encourage P to break their agreement..."

[norwest]

I just find it ethically challenging that "A" would provide "B" with knowledge to encourage "P" to break a contractual agreement. Sounds like "A" was setting up "P".

He was actively encouraging P to break an agreement? What brings you to that conclusion?
To the contrary, A had assumed that B, with the knowledge provided, might be discouraged to do so, particularly when he had no reason to assume otherwise.

Why, Lianne, would he want to set up a client to break an agreement? What would the benefit be? You surely must have a motive in mind to suggest such a premeditated action.

It would appear that he did not "ignore the knowledge" as you stated originally, rather he listened intently to what "A was advising him on how and what might encourage P to break their agreement..."

Obviously he didn't ignore it. As obvious as my original statement, 'ignore the knowledge', was referring to paying no heed to the consequences to A of doing so.

[Lianne]

Your original wording "A was advising him on how and what might encourage P to break their agreement..." sounded like encouragement.

Why, Lianne, would he want to set up a client to break an agreement? What would the benefit be? You surely must have a motive in mind to suggest such a premeditated action.

Why - don't know; benefit - don't know; motive - just commenting on what was written.
I have no investment in the outcome - just commenting on what I read.

[norwest]

Why - don't know; benefit - don't know; motive - just commenting on what was written.
I have no investment in the outcome - just commenting on what I read.

I didn't suggest you had a motive, i was referring to what motive there could be for such premeditated action.

I assure you in the strongest terms, there was no such set up, absolutely no reason for such a set up and no encouragement for what transpired.