Defects in D800

[Wayne]

I went out with the D800 attached to the 400/2.8VR + TC17EII, shooting 1/2500 f5.6-8 and it was soft on alot of static bird shots. This lens is pretty spot on when on my D3s or my previous D700, so the lens alighn is coming out for more testing. I'm almost certain its not the lens.

[Sylvia]

My last 2 posts were deleted for infringing the no complaining rule until you have 50 posts or more. Fair enough no more complaining from me.

I am happy to report that Nikon has my 800e for an alleged focus issue for the second time. How good is this.

I am not complaining and this is not a complaint but merely and observation of good customer service and that all should be aware of this good news.

Thank you Mods and thank you Nikon.

[raccoon]

Just an observation, with all the reviews that have been done by the "experts".
Why was this issue not pick up in their reviews, as it is real problem that seems to be world wide ??????

[I @ M]

Just an observation, with all the reviews that have been done by the "experts".
Why was this issue not pick up in their reviews, as it is real problem that seems to be world wide ??????

Which "experts" are you referring to?

I have seen one review by a reasonably well respected person that has brought it up.
I have seen other reviews by some who I suspect have a distinct bias towards selling products through the parent company of the review web site who either chose to ignore the problem or who had an example that didn't show the fault.

[Lance B]

Just an observation, with all the reviews that have been done by the "experts".
Why was this issue not pick up in their reviews, as it is real problem that seems to be world wide ??????

To be fair to the reviewers, they probably don't have the time nor do they bother testing, absolutely every single aspect of a camera, and from what I have seen reported, the AF issue is really only the extreme left AF point, sometimes the right one but to a lesser degree, and generally only manifests itself with wide aperture lenses at the wider apertures. If they are like me, I have only ever noticed the issue of a very few occassions in my 4500 odd shots and the reviewers could put that down as operator error at the time. I have not had an instance where it has ruined a shot.

[Sylvia]

Just an observation, with all the reviews that have been done by the "experts".
Why was this issue not pick up in their reviews, as it is real problem that seems to be world wide ??????

The alleged focus issues do not affect all bodies, while it IS allegedly widespread, not every body has the alleged issues, and until I reach 50 posts and while keeping to the rules, it is not an issue I can discuss here at least.

[Kym]

@Sylvia ... the 50/30 rule is about protecting you and all members.
We have in the past had people join just to a) promote their product (not fair to paying advertisers who make Ap happen) or b) bag out a competitor (obviously not good).
So while it may seem a bit of an inconvenience we find that by 50posts and 30days membership we have a good idea about the intent of new members.

In the end it makes AP a safe place for you to share your creativity.

[Sar NOP]

I went out with the D800 attached to the 400/2.8VR + TC17EII, shooting 1/2500 f5.6-8 and it was soft on alot of static bird shots.

That's scary, Wayne.
The 400 VR is known to be spot on with its AF on any camera body.

I'm lucky that my 200-400 and 600 VR work perfectly on my D800, even with x2 TC and wide open (on both static and moving subjects).
In the other hand, the combo 200/2 VRII+TC (the all three Nikon ones) doesn't work as good as these two telelenses on the same D800 !

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To be fair to the reviewers, they probably don't have the time nor do they bother testing, absolutely every single aspect of a camera, and from what I have seen reported, the AF issue is really only the extreme left AF point, sometimes the right one but to a lesser degree, and generally only manifests itself with wide aperture lenses at the wider apertures. If they are like me, I have only ever noticed the issue of a very few occassions in my 4500 odd shots and the reviewers could put that down as operator error at the time. I have not had an instance where it has ruined a shot.

Totally agreed with Lance on this point.

[mongo]

I went out with the D800 attached to the 400/2.8VR + TC17EII, shooting 1/2500 f5.6-8 and it was soft on alot of static bird shots. This lens is pretty spot on when on my D3s or my previous D700, so the lens alighn is coming out for more testing. I'm almost certain its not the lens.

Mongo is a little shocked too at the results Wayne is getting from his 400 f2.8 on the D800. To Mongo’s knowledge, it is the sharpest lens even with a X2 converter and gives amazing results. If it is not performing well, it is either the D800 focus issues OR it simply does not perform as well on the D800 as it can on other bodies. Try focusing it manually on the D800 as a test as see what results you get.


The above is not surprising in many ways. While MOngo’s D800 is being repaired, he has reacquainted himself with his D200. Mongo is quite certain that his 300 f2.8 with X2 converter is much sharper on that body than it is on the D800 - disappointing but probably true. Mongo says this is not surprising as he believes the D800 will simply magnify any imperfections in any lens and bring them to the surface. If a lens looks great through a D800, then, it must be as good a lens as you can hope for. This has nothing to do with build quality or quality control or auto focus performance - it is simply another aspect of the D800 that Mongo thinks is true and worth mentioning.

[Lance B]

Mongo is a little shocked too at the results Wayne is getting from his 400 f2.8 on the D800. To Mongo’s knowledge, it is the sharpest lens even with a X2 converter and gives amazing results. If it is not performing well, it is either the D800 focus issues OR it simply does not perform as well on the D800 as it can on other bodies. Try focusing it manually on the D800 as a test as see what results you get.


The above is not surprising in many ways. While MOngo’s D800 is being repaired, he has reacquainted himself with his D200. Mongo is quite certain that his 300 f2.8 with X2 converter is much sharper on that body than it is on the D800 - disappointing but probably true. Mongo says this is not surprising as he believes the D800 will simply magnify any imperfections in any lens and bring them to the surface. If a lens looks great through a D800, then, it must be as good a lens as you can hope for. This has nothing to do with build quality or quality control or auto focus performance - it is simply another aspect of the D800 that Mongo thinks is true and worth mentioning.

Hmm, the D800 can't make a lens look worse than it does on the D200, it may not make it look any better, but it won't be any worse. However, I am sure that it will look better on the D800 regardless and if you are not seeing the benefit, it must be the AF issues. I have yet to see any lens look worse on the D800, they have all recorded an IQ advantage on the D800.

[Sar NOP]

I agree with Lance's statement above.
Again, yesterday I'd been shooting with my D800 and my D2Hs on the 200-400+TCx14 et the 600+TCx17. The pictures always look better with any lens/TC combo on the D800 than on the D2Hs. The HD sensor and more accurate AF system of the D800 do help to get much better results.

mongo, when I compare the NEF files taken with your 300/2.8 AI-S+TC x2 between the D2X and the D800, the IQ from the 36mpix sensor is much better than the one from the 12mpix.

[MattNQ]

Just an observation, with all the reviews that have been done by the "experts".
Why was this issue not pick up in their reviews, as it is real problem that seems to be world wide ??????

I'll be interested to see the as yet unpublished D800 review by Thom Hogan. For real world testing, he is one of the best.

[mongo]

.... I have yet to see any lens look worse on the D800, they have all recorded an IQ advantage on the D800.

MOngo suspects that is because all your lenses are the best available . A, lesser lens may look reasonable on a lesser body but Mongo thinks it has the distinct possibility of looking worse on the D800 as Mongo believes the D800 will show up any flaws or imperfections in the lens. Mongo is not certain of this but it is a theory he is currently going with.

BTW to all others watching this thread, Mongo's D800 is ready to be collected from Nikon. He will report the results of their recalibration of the AF sensors as soon as he has run the same tests he ran before he gave it to Nikon to fix.

[Lance B]

I'll be interested to see the as yet unpublished D800 review by Thom Hogan. For real world testing, he is one of the best.

I am actually putting my faith in my own testing and those of people I know that know how to use a camera, one such person is Sar, from this forum, and a few others that I know. These are real world people using the camera on every day subjects and the beauty of this is that they are not tainted by product endorsement requirements and I can actually talk to them personally and know how they get their findings.

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MOngo suspects that is because all your lenses are the best available .

LOL.

A, lesser lens may look reasonable on a lesser body but Mongo thinks it has the distinct possibility of looking worse on the D800 as Mongo believes the D800 will show up any flaws or imperfections in the lens. Mongo is not certain of this but it is a theory he is currently going with.

I have to respecfully disagree. The lens can't look worse than it does on a lower Mp body, it will still show off the higher resolution of the higher Mp sensor, it might not make as much difference as a higher resolving lens, but you will still see an improvement even a small one. Of course, a lens that has a higher ability to resolve will show off the resolution advantage of the D800 much more, but even a lower res lens will still show some advantage, even if it is a small advantage. A lens simply cannot look worse on a higher res body.

[Wayne]

This is a 100% crop, a little heavy but not that bad.

400/2.8VR + TC17EII @ 1/2500 f/4.8 ISO400 650mm straight out of camera.

Is it soft?
Looking at the water, the DOF to me appears to be consistant with correct focus on the eye or thereabouts. The subject would have been almost 50m from the camera, so even wide open there should be sufficient DOF for the subject.
Am I expecting too much, perhaps failing to recognise that it is a crop from a 36.3mp file, instead of the normal 12.1mp file I'm used to seeing with the D3s and this lens+TC combo?

[Sar NOP]

Wayne, to me this looks like a VR action and/or camera/lens shake. It's not a focus problem.
If the bare lens is sharp wide open, the TCx17 could not reduce the sharpness that bad. Even my 200-400+TCx17 is far better than this wide open.
Have you tried different supports of the lens/camera, with and without VR ? Or handholding the lens with VR ?

[Lance B]

Something wrong here, Wayne. This is wide open, however.

It does look a tad back focused, to me the best point of focus may be the plane of focus at the green blob to the right of the bird in the water and extending to the left just behind the legs and the sticks etc to just behind the birds right leg (our left). So, if we take an arc up to the birds face, then that would be a 200-250mm up but maybe 100mm more towards the camera, indicating that there is a small amount of back focus. ALso, is this at the centre or at the edge of the frame? Maybe if we could see the original image?

[Wayne]

Gents, thanks for your thoughts.

To clarify;

Sar-
Shot with the lens balanced on my WimberleyII head and tripod.
VR was on - normal mode, I never use tripod mode. I also shot a few out of curiosity with VR off, and seems the same result.
Camera shake is very unlikely due to the Wimberley and the shutter speed 1/2500, I can get sharp results hand held at that speed.

Lance-
I agree, it seems to me to be slightly back focused and the plane of focus to me seems to be where you are seeing it.
This was centre AF point, no 3D tracking and multi-area AF (21 points) selected.

Here is the full image;

[Lance B]

That's quite a crop! The "problem" with the D800 is that the bits that are in focus, sort of appear "more" in focus due to the extra resolution afforded, therefore any misfocus seems to be compounded and sticks out like the proverbials and when you crop it, it is highlighted even more. Realistically, the old DOF tables now need to be re-adressed as the extra resolution seems to give us less DOF.

[Sar NOP]

I still think that the soft image is from the camera/lens shake and/or VR action : the beak, eye and neck look sharper than other part of the picture. But there is some kind of double lines along the beak and on the eye. The bokeh doesn't look as smooth as it should be either with this kind of lens.
Blurred image caused by vibrations can happen even at 1/8000" (resonance of frequencies).