Are 'we' just a little bit precious?

[Art Vandelay]

As much as it's everyones right to charge as they please, I never really understand people trying to be commercial about their photography and being cheap, but that's coming from a business background and seeing at a glance that the figures would never stack up to make a decent living from, let alone justify the time spent.

Personally, as a hobbyist who sells occasionally & a few contra deals in place I only have 2 prices. Free, or full fare. Never cheap.

*Free to family, friends & members of couple of sporting clubs I'm part of ...or others if I feel like it & I know it's appreciated.

*Full fare to anyone else or for commercial use - If someones making a dollar from my work then I need my cut as well.

Just being cheap to get odd jobs doesn't make much sense, either for your personal self esteem or from a commercial standpoint.

[Tommo1965]

Does a $2000 a night hooker lose sleep over a $10 hooker?


Photography isn't a regulated industry and never will be. If you want a protected career, don't choose photography. If you do decide to take the plunge, don't whine on about start ups charging what ever they want to, you went into the "industry" with your eyes wide open.

I wonder if this is how "professional" lawn mowing guys feel when they see some kid putting up an ad on the local supermarket notice board advertising to cut lawns for 1/2 what they charge?

If you can only do a lawn as good as a 15 year old kid, you should only be charging what a 15 year old kid charges.

yes but does the 15 year old kid have a franchise fee to consider , or mortage ?

lawning mowing is a bit of a unskilled job so most people can do it...taking good professional images is another matter

Rick

yes you should care...I don't operate in the photography industry , but as a tradesman that has spent his past 30 years of working life building up a skill set and business that could be severely affected by cowboys buggering it up for the pros..then yes I can see how a so called photographer {cowboy} that does a wedding for $300 would affect the "Tradesmen" in the photography industry ....it waters the rest of you down....people expectation lower as does their expectation of what they should be charged.

I personally think that any trade that charges for skilled services should be licensed by a regulatory board of any particular industry ...crikey in WA even painters are licensed and if you have a issue with one..you take them to the painters Rego ...same with builders, plumbers and sparkies..and soon to be implemented across all the remaining trades..and so it should be..to control quality and provide a avenue for disgruntled client to resolve differences .

a quality pro has spent years perfecting their trade and costs that are associated with running a business need to be paid for ..a mum or dad for that matter that is charging cash for a sideline can do it cheaper {as with the 15 year old lawnmower} because they have zero overheads and if they do bugger it up..it wont affect their 9-5 mortgage paying job..

for the lower income earners that cant afford real pro..to pay for a cowboy is darn silly....Id expect disappointment all round ..best to get uncle Fred for free at least his crap images arnt paid for

[rellik666]

There will always be people that appreciate quality and are prepared to pay for it.

There will always be people that like the look/way something is done over another look/way something is done.

There will always be people that want an Brand over a no-name.

There will always be people that want something for the lowest possible price.

The only problem that is out there now and will continue to get worse is noise. How do you (whatever you are) stand out from the crowd? Barriers to entry are lower then they ever have been.

In answers to Rick's question, I think people in general are precious about things they have investment in. Sometimes it is a bit of jealousy, that someone has done something you haven't had the drive to do/ inclination/money/time whatever so lets drag them down.

But I with Jim, photography is a hobby to me, one of many, but it is the only one I see people constantly having the need to make money from. Well done to you if you have, but I do it for me.

And to all those Photography Businesses, good on you for doing what you want to do. Good Luck to you.

[Erin]

But should the $20K photographer be lamenting, degrading or calling the $299 photographer out, for the fact they charge $299?

Honestly, I don't think they should be. Like I said, there are markets for both. Guaranteed the $20K photographer would NOT want to deal with the $299 client just as much as the $299 client wouldn't want to deal with the $20K photographer. I think that's something that also needs to be considered as a major part of the equation - people forget about the clients. THEY are the ones spending the money.

What sort of clientel are you aiming for and marketing towards?

For example, I doubt Jerry Ghionis is marketing towards those with a tight budget of $5000-$10,000 for their wedding. I'd say with the big bucks get his business - and he's worth it.

I've got friends who don't show up for a wedding for less than a couple thousand, and that's before they even pick up a camera. They have pride in what they do and are happy not to compromise their work because some client wants to go cheap. They will happily point them in the direction of someone who will do it cheaply or simply not take the client. It's not worth it to them. Naturally, if a cheap photographer does a great job and gives wonderful results, all's well and good... though they will crawl up the price ladder just like every talented photographer before them. It's human nature. There's a reason why the expensive ones are good. LOL

[Kerrie]

Hhmmm


Can someone explain to me what a $20,000 photographer could do better than, oh, say, a $10,000 photographer ? I know 299 versus 20,000 is an understood difference in skill, based on price and portfolio, and probably experience ......but when it gets up there in the thousands,
.... What's the real point of difference at that level?

[zollo]

lets have some fun with that question...

a $20000 photographer will almost definitely be using a hasselblad or phase one. who cares? well those who drive a ferrari instead of a 325i will care. ie the customer who wants a $20000 photographer will
both will probably achieve the same result, but its how the result is achieved

[ricktas]

What's the difference between a Rolex and a Timex? A Timex is for you to tell the time by, a Rolex is for you to show others the time.

While there is a market (at any price point) there will be those willing to fulfill that market. Demand and Supply! I cannot see the Queen commissioning a $299.00 photographer

[Bear Dale]

How many weeks a year does an Aussie $20,000 a pop wedding photographer have booked?

[Bear Dale]

Maybe "precious" photographers are just precocious

[Art Vandelay]

At those pricing levels you're paying a premium similar to a desirable piece of art, or work by a particular artist.

Whether most of us see value in that doesn't really matter. As long as those paying are happy

And kudos to those who command those prices.

[JayR]

Only if these kinds of people bring the reputation of 'photographers' down.
Kit lens & DSLR does not equal 'photographer' capable of providing a paid service.

[Xenedis]

One other thing that I ponder sometimes when reading a lot of people threads on different photography forums, is this 'need' to make money from photography. Why do so many people have this drive to make money from their hobby? Why do so many people see photography (their hobby) as some sort of cash cow?

That's a very good question, and I think your point is closely related to the thread Rick started about why people have some sort of perception that it's easy to make money from photography.

In my opinion, the best way to totally destroy a hobby about which one is passionate, is to try to turn it into a career.

It's one of the reasons why I will not operate as a photographer for a living, or do any commercial work or selling any more.

My photography is for me. I shoot what I want, when I want, how I want. The most demanding client I have is myself, and if I don't get the image I want, the worst problem I face is disappointment.

I can understand why many long-established photographers are incensed at the Johnny-come-latelys who buy an entry-level DSLR kit and all of a sudden are 'professional wedding photographers' with a Facebook presence (<scoff>, <chortle>) potentially under-cutting them and devaluing photography; but on the other hand, in just about any industry there is the little battler catering for the budget end of town, and there is the big-name photographer with a big budget and big clients, serving a completely different market.

Australia is a country which prides itself on the little guy getting out there and having a go.

People should have the freedom to decide to do that, but if they do, then they should know what's involved and not be deluded into thinking they can do this merely because a few people have told them they have nice images, or that they should do it for a living.

These guys simply cannot compete in the higher-end markets (in the beginning, at least), so photographers who do operate in that environment should not regard them as any kind of threat.

IMO, people should do whatever it is they do and concentrate on being good at it within their market segment, whilst being aware of what's happening around them, but not fretting about it.

[sunny6teen]

agreed. each photographer is catering to different clientele. neither tog should be concerned about the other.
however...it's the client that should be concerned.
does the client recognise the difference? is the client aware that the trade is not regulated? what's aipp?
is it client's responsibilty to research all of this?

my website clearly states that I like to portray the essential unreality of the human condition leading to a hegemony of distress in a chaos of the new undefined.
meaning? ... the bride's head is out of frame in all of the wedding shots. thank you for choosing El Budgeto Fotografico.

the previous posts are assuming that the client is happy with the results. what if they're not?

[kiwi]

As I've said probably a million times before, ignore cheap, it's bad I get annoyed at, so bad that they cant focus, expose or manage colour that have just picked up a DSLR then two months later are quite bluntly ripping potential clients off free or $500 or whatever. They are usually deluded and over confident to the point of blind. I think a) these dipsticks should get a quick reality check from someone other than their sycophantic and adoring family and b) their "clients" should be encouraged to look for someone that's still cheap but actually good. And I've seen good togs doing weddings for $700 as an example.

There have been many circumstances here where a newbie gets sucked into doing a wedding and comes on asking what lens they should use etc, no backup gear, no image backup strategy, no idea....do you say "go for gold" or do you say "just stop"

Can you be bothered ? Not often. You could spend your whole life on a futile crusade against faux photographers, and for all the reasons listed above, usually a waste of time...every so often though given an opportunity a reality check is necessary, especially faced with an obvious train crash


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Chris C]

Photography isn't a regulated industry and never will be. If you want a protected career, don't choose photography. If you do decide to take the plunge, don't whine on about start ups charging what ever they want to, you went into the "industry" with your eyes wide open.

True Jim. Whining does seem a bit of a waste of time and forum space.


But Internet Whining is one of the fastest growing sports on the plant, so why should Photography be any exception?

The rules of IW (which may well be included in the next Olympics as a demonstration sport) are quite simple:

• 1. The participants, possibly embittered by their own mediocre performance and lack of recognition, shall select a target (either real or invented) and heap scorn on their alleged shortcomings.
  
  2. They shall invite others to take kicks at the 'straw man' (or woman), and the thread with the most whiny posts wins.
  
  3. In the event of the OP being told to "get a life", "grow up" or "suck it up princess" they shall not buckle, flounce off blushing, or in any way modify their original position.
  
  4. Any change of heart (known as "watering the whine") shall result in immediate disqualification.

Over-performing Internet Whiners tend to look like the forum losers, so it's best done in moderation.


Unfortunately, most of us succumb now and then....


Cheers, (If being cheery still means anything in this twisted modern world, where traditional values have....blah, whine, blah, blah.....)

Chris

[Lance B]

Seriously there are too many people in this world worrying about what other people are doing, how they are doing it, why they are doing it and how much they are charging for it.

How true.

[Lance B]

But should the $20K photographer be lamenting, degrading or calling the $299 photographer out, for the fact they charge $299?

Pretty simple, really. A couple of observations.

If the $20k photographer can justify his expense, then why should he care about the $299 photog. If the $299 photographer can give the same results as the $20k guy, then the $20k guy should be nervous! It's not all that different from comparing a high end Merc with a lowly Kia, they both get you where you're going, but one does it in style and comfort and the other just costs alot!

The only thing I would be concerned about with the $299 photographer and letting him/her loose on my wedding would be that he/she stuffs it up and I have no photos of the big day. Generally the higher cost photogs have insurance to cover any chance of being sued due to lost wediing photos. However, the pro would have back up plans and bodies and cards and back up photographers in case they get sick etc to cover such events, whereas the low end guy just takes off and you've got diddly squat.

This is the reason why we have professions and profesional bodies that are supposed to have standards that they have to adhere to so as the public do not get ripped off. Electrical trades have certificates to show that they know what they are doing so we don't get electrocuted or they don't burn down a house, same goes for plumbers, carpenters, doctors, dentists and any other profession you care to name.

[stuey]

My 2 cents worth,

I have read this thread with great intrest. What i am interested in is -

1. How many actual Full time sole income employed photographers are actually here on this forum, and what are their thoughts on the matter.

2. Dont we as consumers sometimes seek out the cheapest deal for eg, petrol, haircuts, camera equipment etc
and then we go and complain when someone in this industry offers a cheap service.

3. At the end of the day if the client is happy why should we waste our time caring who charges what for a service.
If at the end of the day the client is happy isnt that what matters the most. And if their not well then lesson learnt perhaps.

4. Does any one remember when Hyundai and Kia (1992?) first brought out sub $10K priced cars and how Holden and Ford bitched and wined over the quality and that it would destroy the market.... there seems to be a lot of holden and fords still being sold and driven...

5. How many part timers / hobbists / casuals / weekend warriors (call them what you like - people that have full time paying employment else where) that are members here have done free shoots on so called spec, sent free images to papers/magazines etc just to get a so called photo credit ( as that is what really helps promote your business apparently ), or done TFP pictures with models / kids / families who are looking to increase their modeling port folios ( with out any charge what so ever ). ??

6. I see on here from time to time people winging and whining that the industry is dead, going backwards, and not much work (fashion/magazines/sport) yet after having a back of house tour of the Skilled park stadium on Sat night with 20 other lucky coupon winners, we got to visit the media centre and photographers office under the stadium. Chatting with the full time toggs in their they all complained they are actually to busy both editorially and in their own private photography businesses... So the question i ask on this topic is - Why are they so busy full time and we arnt ??? What are they doing better and bigger then the majority of us... I know for a fact they dont charge peanuts or offer to do jobs for free at all or ( to do it for free for receiving a media pass in return as they all complained about some ethics of some photographers in QLD). Perhaps longshots could answer this as he always seems busy and is a full time professional.

At the end of the day this industry is changing on a daily rate, if you want to be a full time photographer you need to be able to move sideways and change with such a fluid industry otherwise you will be left behind.. Maybe we need as a group to stop winging about what other people are offering eg $299 for a wedding and concentrate more on improving our own skills (photography / business ) to further our own careers/income/business practices.

6. And i dont think name calling is helping our cause one bit, In fact it makes us look idiots and sometimes can be seen as a distraction from what we think our own ability may be but isnt really...

So shouldnt it be " Buyer beware" in the end.... if your happy paying $299 or $20K its their decision and not ours to whine over and call names and belittle people.

My thoughts only

Stu

[I @ M]

I have read this thread with great intrest. What i am interested in is -

1. How many actual Full time sole income employed photographers are actually here on this forum, and what are their thoughts on the matter.

Maybe we had better run another poll this year to get some more current figures.

This thread started in Sept. 2010 goes someway to answering your question Stu.

http://www.ausphotography.net.au/for...-photographing

[mikew09]

Hmmm - interesting discussion. I really dont see it being any different to any other services / product market. In any business you need to know who you are marketing too and if the cheaper guys are getting your work well maybe your business is targeting the wrong market.

Friends of my daughter who have seen my wedding photos I did take at her wedding have asked me to do two weddings now but I declined both and just offered recommendations and an option to do add-hoc second shoot if the photographer was comfortable with it (both cases NOT).

My reasoning - sure I would be cheap but on such a special day I think it very important to get the wedding shoot right and with the cost of a good photographer that can provide portfolio etc the chances are good. On one occasion they took my advise and on another they chose a full time but very cheap photographer :-(. Result, you get what you pay for :-)

Hence, good marketing, reputation, re-pour with the customer and the correct target market for the product you are offering should equate to a productive business. I have run a business in the past and the only eqation you cant factor for is pure economics - demand an supply. No demand - no work. Like I said - MARKETING