Are 'we' just a little bit precious?

[livio]

A photography business is like any other business, in general you get what you pay for. They provide a niche if they get to much business at 300 they have to put someone else on to help with the volume. If teir quality suffers they stop getting jobs and become just another statistic. Photography in many ways is like music, you do it because you like to it drives an inner passion and if you get good enough and are business savy you make some money. If you are exceptional you might get a full time gig and make really good money. No doubt there are some cowboys that give photographers a bad name but people are generally good to work out who they can use how much they have to spend and what result they will get. Some photographers will charge 240 for four hours work and give you the images. These are great to use for a web page or something that does not require high resolution. If you require printed output you might have to spend a lot more because there is lighting, placement and composition to consider.

[Seabee]

Seriously there are too many people in this world worrying about what other people are doing, how they are doing it, why they are doing it and how much they are charging for it.
IT......is a very dangerous word, lol

I fall into the category of.....I got a camera when I was 8 and I have loved discovering the joys ever since.
I am not attached to money so my main purpose is not to recoup the costs of anything I buy or the time I spend on my passion.
I can and do charge at times...........but its neither here nor there to me.

I have a job that pays for my passion and I could probably quite easily set up a small business in 'a' genre of some sort, but thats not me.
Its the creating I like.............so no, the so called professional should not worry about my goings on and my $300 weddings, I am certainly no threat and nor would I say I am a novice.

I proudly say I am a professional enthusiast lol.
I love to create and I love people to learn...............so I will never ever be a 'secretive' photographer keeping my magic to myself.

So in reference to the threads title.....................YES, some people are waaaaay too precious.

[Presotto]

But should the $20K photographer be lamenting, degrading or calling the $299 photographer out, for the fact they charge $299?

Absolultly not!

[Wayne]

Longshots?
Zeke?

I would be interested to hear from some of the more protective professionals who often chime in, with what I would call a protectionist response to people like part-time operators, cheap operators....

[bobt]

Professionals in all sorts of fields probably feel a little cheated by technology. Those who learned a trade or craft the "old" way will always be sad that their skill is now universally available - the printing industry must be spewing about the ready availability of cheap printers and computers and specially embossed papers and so forth. That's just progress, and what was once a specialised trade now becomes something anyone can do. That's life, and we have to accept it. There will always be niche practitioners who have some sort of added "edge", and they will find their share of the market. We all need to evolve, and if technology makes our skill set less specialised, then we have to adapt, modify our skills and find new markets. Sometimes people pay for the "name", sometimes they pay for convenience and the balance between these and quality is often subjective. Caveat emptor applies to all of our decisions.

[Bear Dale]

One other thing that I ponder sometimes when reading a lot of people threads on different photography forums, is this 'need' to make money from photography. Why do so many people have this drive to make money from their hobby? Why do so many people see photography (their hobby) as some sort of cash cow?

Don't say it's a way to recoup monies spent on pricey equipment. There's many many costlier hobbies and pursuits than photography and people don't see the need to charge (even family members!) others to get some money back on their expenditure like many photographers seem to do.

Because they've 'produced' something? Honestly, you've pushed a button on an electonic handheld computer and it's captured an image......good for you ().

One of my other hobbies is woodturning. XXXXX amount of dollars tied up in machinery, tools and exotic wood blanks. When you've spent hours and sometimes days making something from a rough piece of wood into a beautiful and functional piece of 'art' you can really say you 'made it'. I've made hundreds of pieces and given every single one of them away. I'm not unusual, in my group of "woodies" they all give their 'art' away for free. They don't see the need to recoup on their outlay of machinery and wood, nor make money from their 'art'.

Another pastime is water skiiing and wakeboarding. My boat is worth XXXXXX (yep six figures) the thought has never crossed my mind when friends and friends of friends are being towed behind me to ask them for a cheque or better yet have a credit card point of sale device on board so that after there go they can pay me.......so that I can recoup some of my outlay.

So what is this inexplicable (at least to me) need for lots of people to charge money for photography? What stops people from being generous, even with their own family members when it comes to taking photos and giving images away?

When it comes to photography, some of us do seem a little precious.

[Seabee]

One other thing that I ponder sometimes when reading a lot of people threads on different photography forums, is this 'need' to make money from photography. Why do so many people have this drive to make money from their hobby? Why do so many people see photography (their hobby) as some sort of cash cow?

Don't say it's a way to recoup monies spent on pricey equipment. There's many many costlier hobbies and pursuits than photography and people don't see the need to charge (even family members!) others to get some money back on their expenditure like many photographers seem to do.

Because they've 'produced' something? Honestly, you've pushed a button on an electonic handheld computer and it's captured an image......good for you ().

One of my other hobbies is woodturning. XXXXX amount of dollars tied up in machinery, tools and exotic wood blanks. When you've spent hours and sometimes days making something from a rough piece of wood into a beautiful and functional piece of 'art' you can really say you 'made it'. I've made hundreds of pieces and given every single one of them away. I'm not unusual, in my group of "woodies" they all give their 'art' away for free. They don't see the need to recoup on their outlay of machinery and wood, nor make money from their 'art'.

Another pastime is water skiiing and wakeboarding. My boat is worth XXXXXX (yep six figures) the thought has never crossed my mind when friends and friends of friends are being towed behind me to ask them for a cheque or better yet have a credit card point of sale device on board so that after there go they can pay me.......so that I can recoup some of my outlay.

So what is this inexplicable (at least to me) need for lots of people to charge money for photography? What stops people from being generous, even with their own family members when it comes to taking photos and giving images away?

When it comes to photography, some of us do seem a little precious.

I whole heartedly agree with all that you have said!
My friends often ask when am I going to start making money from what I do..............why is it always about money grrr!!

But I do see that I get that question mainly from people that don't have a creative hobby, or sporting hobby.
In the next year I plan to spend at least $15k on equipment.............because I can and it gives me great enjoyment.

No different to any other enthusiast, I dont win anything, I dont sell anything.............my achievement is 'my self satisfaction'

[Steve Axford]

You are so right Jim. I often give stuff away and some people are amazed that I do. But why not? I could scratch out a pittance from it if I wanted, but all the extra effort and the consequent loss of circulation (people seeing my work) would not make me any happier. And all so that I could call myself - professional? Who really cares. Professional just means "I earn money from it", not "I am good at it".

[bobt]

One other thing that I ponder sometimes when reading a lot of people threads on different photography forums, is this 'need' to make money from photography. Why do so many people have this drive to make money from their hobby? Why do so many people see photography (their hobby) as some sort of cash cow?

When it comes to photography, some of us do seem a little precious.

Yup ... agree with all that. I suspect there are three sorts of members here. Those that are already professionals, in that this is their main breadwinner. Those that are "wanna be" professionals, and those who are hobbyists.
The professionals need to bear in mind that photography is the same as any other product. You make sales depending on the quality of your product and what the market will bear.
The "wanna bee's" need to realise that running a business isn't just a matter of hanging a sign up and presuming that the customers will come. Your product has to be a good one.
The hobbyists need to remember that the primary aim of a hobby is pleasure, not income.

I give my pictures away to all and sundry, mostly because I feel that it's a mutual benefit. They, as my photographic targets, are essential to my hobby - and so I reward them with some of mine. It's a win-win situation, and also helps enhance our image generally with the public. There are far too many "precious" photographers out there .....

[mcmahong]

I agree Rick. I think there is very little reason for protogs to be slamming the undercharging hobbyist. The only people that could feel entitled to be angry are the clients that have received a sub-standard product. But that is not an issue exclusive to photography. "You get what you pay for" is a motto that encompasses many industries. In photography, "What you get" is the level of experience and professionalism that is reflected in a quality product. A good photographer will have a reputation, a client base, and a level of assurance. A cheap hobbyist, although potentially capable of producing outstanding work, is unlikely going to be able to market that level of professionalism to a prospective client until they have proven themselves. So they are only appealing to the budget market, who would and should be aware that the risk is high. The only people who are entitled to cry are the disappointed clients who feel they have been ripped off by someone claiming to deliver more than they can. It happens everywhere, and that is a shame.

I definitely fall (or fell) into the category you speak of, although I believe I'm emerging into something more professional and reputable now. I've got repeat clients and can start to charge closer to an established professional fee even though it is still my side-job. However, to get started in this industry, offering free then dirt-cheap photography was the only step really available to me to get experience and to fund upgraded equipment. And it is starting to pay off, with most of my work now coming from recommendations. There will be cowboys (and cowgirls) out there that will charge for simply turning up and indiscriminately snapping the shutter of a DSLR (with equal misuse of Photoshop filters), but they will either head in 2 directions - in a positive and improved path towards a rewarding career, or into the wasteheap of wannabes that discover that they really just can't cut it and need to fight for cheap jobs.

At the end of the day, professional photographers will always have their reputation and imagery to validate their fee and secure an income. Hobbyists (edit: inexperienced photographers that charge cheaply for their work) will come and go, appealing only to a market that doesn't need high quality photography. A market professionals need not waste their time on, so really should not need to flame those that feed upon it.

[Steve Axford]

At the end of the day, professional photographers will always have their reputation and imagery to validate their fee and secure an income. Hobbyists will come and go, appealing only to a market that doesn't need high quality photography. A market professionals need not waste their time on, so really should not need to flame those that feed upon it.

Ged, I call myself a hobbyist (because money is not the objective), but I do object to your sentence "Hobbyists will come and go, appealing only to a market that doesn't need high quality photography". I will always try to provide high quality photography (and I believe, usually succeed) and I even try to stretch the boundaries of photography into areas that others have not ventured. Perhaps you could replace your term "hobbyist" as I suspect the word isn't what you really meant.

[Chris C]

Professionals in all sorts of fields probably feel a little cheated by technology. Those who learned a trade or craft the "old" way will always be sad that their skill is now universally available - the printing industry must be spewing about the ready availability of cheap printers and computers and specially embossed papers and so forth. That's just progress, and what was once a specialised trade now becomes something anyone can do. That's life, and we have to accept it. There will always be niche practitioners who have some sort of added "edge", and they will find their share of the market. We all need to evolve, and if technology makes our skill set less specialised, then we have to adapt, modify our skills and find new markets. Sometimes people pay for the "name", sometimes they pay for convenience and the balance between these and quality is often subjective. Caveat emptor applies to all of our decisions.

Well said.

I'm learning to play guitar and upstairs I have a "recording studio" with a capability that comfortably exceeds what many professional studios had only a few years ago. I can use a huge number of multitracks and change any aspect of the performance, right down to correcting the pitch of individual notes. In fact I can fake almost anything if I put the time in.

Similarly, my 'entry level' DSLR and Photoshop Elements can produce some results, with relative ease, that only a few years ago would have needed hours of work and much more professional experience.


There will always be potential customers with lower budgets and/or lower taste thresholds, so there will always be a market for cheaper wine, cheaper clothes, and cheaper photography. As always, it's up to anybody who wants to be considered as a 'capital P' Professional to demonstrate to the market what extra quality they are offering that is worth the price. And then keep doing it, for the rest of their working life.

Even though the technical advances are stellar, they usually come with their own new learning demands too (few people actually know how to use the full potential of something like Photoshop unless they've put in hundreds of hours of work and study). So there's always a place for knowledge and experience. Professionals should be able to find that place, even when it keeps shifting. If the pros do their job, amateurs like me are highly unlikely to ever catch them. The biggest thing I've learnt in the last five or six weeks is just how much I DON'T know yet!

Cheers,

Chris

[mcmahong]

One other thing that I ponder sometimes when reading a lot of people threads on different photography forums, is this 'need' to make money from photography. Why do so many people have this drive to make money from their hobby? Why do so many people see photography (their hobby) as some sort of cash cow?

Don't say it's a way to recoup monies spent on pricey equipment. There's many many costlier hobbies and pursuits than photography and people don't see the need to charge (even family members!) others to get some money back on their expenditure like many photographers seem to do.

Because they've 'produced' something? Honestly, you've pushed a button on an electonic handheld computer and it's captured an image......good for you ().

One of my other hobbies is woodturning. XXXXX amount of dollars tied up in machinery, tools and exotic wood blanks. When you've spent hours and sometimes days making something from a rough piece of wood into a beautiful and functional piece of 'art' you can really say you 'made it'. I've made hundreds of pieces and given every single one of them away. I'm not unusual, in my group of "woodies" they all give their 'art' away for free. They don't see the need to recoup on their outlay of machinery and wood, nor make money from their 'art'.

Another pastime is water skiiing and wakeboarding. My boat is worth XXXXXX (yep six figures) the thought has never crossed my mind when friends and friends of friends are being towed behind me to ask them for a cheque or better yet have a credit card point of sale device on board so that after there go they can pay me.......so that I can recoup some of my outlay.

So what is this inexplicable (at least to me) need for lots of people to charge money for photography? What stops people from being generous, even with their own family members when it comes to taking photos and giving images away?

When it comes to photography, some of us do seem a little precious.

I wish photography was a 'cash cow'!

I agree with you, getting paid shouldn't be a compelling and inevitable outcome of a hobby, but for a few it is. I have to say, I think there is an aspect here which is less black and white then what you've described... which is that most hobby photographers do it for fun and for free, but some allow for the occasional bit of compensation when they are asked to do a small job which is usually something not normally part of their hobby. For me, that includes things like corporate headshots, products, or events. I can appreciate that you would never charge for your woodturning or waterskiing, but if a stranger asked you to make 20 stock-standard table legs for them, or an activity group wanted to hire your boat and driving skills every Saturday for a month, you would probably either say "no" or accept their offer for payment. It's unlikely you would do it for free.

I don't charge for family portraits or anything for friends and family, but I do get approached to do "boring" photography. The studio click and print kind of stuff (I've generalised greatly there, but hopefully you get my point). At the end of the day if you can get a few dollars for what you do and therefore subsidise the next lens, then why not? I went down that road, and it has helped me buy more equipment (I honestly could not afford to otherwise!). Horses for courses, I guess.

[mcmahong]

Ged, I call myself a hobbyist (because money is not the objective), but I do object to your sentence "Hobbyists will come and go, appealing only to a market that doesn't need high quality photography". I will always try to provide high quality photography (and I believe, usually succeed) and I even try to stretch the boundaries of photography into areas that others have not ventured. Perhaps you could replace your term "hobbyist" as I suspect the word isn't what you really meant.

My deepest apologies, Steve. You are right, I don't mean hobbyist. I really meant to refer to those start-up photographers that try to scratch out some payment for using a DSLR. Poor generalisation on my behalf.
I'm one of those people, but largely consider myself a hobbyist too.

[I @ M]

I'm wondering what all the posters here that are doing it for a hobby and telling those that do it for a living to "get with the times " would be saying if they had to rely on photography for an income.

It aint a crime to have photography as a hobby and it is no more a crime to have photography as a full time source of income.

The way I see it is that all the photographers that I know and do it for a living love their job.
Many of them I feel would be much wealthier people earning a salary in another field ( many photographers I know hold qualifications in such other fields ) whilst I suspect that many of the ones that photograph as a hobby use it as a form of relaxation to escape their day jobs.

[Steve Axford]

Ged,
As I wrote my response I did start to think that. Apology accepted.
If I was professional, I would be doing somewhat different things with my photography, but I would be no more dedicated to quality than I am now. Unfortunately, professional tends to imply - trained, skill, good at, etc - in our society, and anyone can call themselves a professional photographer. And of course lots who are not skilled, trained or good at, do - just because it makes them sound good. Nothing we can do about that.

[Steve Axford]

I'm wondering what all the posters here that are doing it for a hobby and telling those that do it for a living to "get with the times " would be saying if they had to rely on photography for an income.
.

I'd be saying that to myself. What choice would I have??? You either sink or swim. Living in a pretend world just doesn't work for very long.

[Seabee]

I'm wondering what all the posters here that are doing it for a hobby and telling those that do it for a living to "get with the times " would be saying if they had to rely on photography for an income.

It aint a crime to have photography as a hobby and it is no more a crime to have photography as a full time source of income.

The way I see it is that all the photographers that I know and do it for a living love their job.

Many of them I feel would be much wealthier people earning a salary in another field ( many photographers I know hold qualifications in such other fields ) whilst I suspect that many of the ones that photograph as a hobby use it as a form of relaxation to escape their day jobs.

Whatever income we choose to rely on to live , is still a 'choice'
We have choices in every direction we head...............The point is to 'own' your choice and never be negative towards others.
We all have our reasons for doing what we do..........the trick is to gleen as many positives out of it as we can.

Money can be a negative driving force for some.........the abundance comes from the heart and the enjoyment of what we do.
Those that are succeeding in their chosen fields are doing so because they simply 'love' what they do.

Thats the whole point..........when we do something because we love it, we are not worried about the comings and goings of others in the same field.
We have trust in oursleve and our own abilities.

[Bear Dale]

I'm wondering what all the posters here that are doing it for a hobby and telling those that do it for a living to "get with the times " would be saying if they had to rely on photography for an income.

I'd probably be looking for another job and getting other qualifications, because I'd be seeing the writing on the wall and knowing what I know now about how much it costs to own a home, raise a family, pay for private education, braces, private medical insurance, cars, holiday home, extensions etc etc etc I'd be thinking that it's going to be a very difficult road in the professional photography industry to support that lifestyle as the steam roller of change has in no way finished yet.


I certainly wouldn't be buying a bookstore (because I love reading) nor would I be buying a DVD/Video rental store (because I love watching movies) because these are two other "industries" that have been affected and will continue to be affected by changing times.

One of my closest friends ran a mini lab for over 20+ years. The two in my town have closed up in the last 6 months, one had been there for 20 years as well and the other around 15 years ...... anyone want to open one of them up now?

Another friend worked for New Limited his whole career. You wouldn't believe his portfolios. The access to the people he had for over 30+ years is just absolutely mind blowing. I've spent hours and hours just looking at his portfolios. The photography dept was huge at News Limited, 24 hours a day 7 days a week. A huge arsenal of equipment to choose from, a mobile darkroom that would follow the 'togs around the big newsworthy events. Now thanks to digital it's virtually unrecognizable he says if he drops in to say hello to 1 or 2 colleagues who haven't taken their golden handshake yet.

[I @ M]

Whatever income we choose to rely on to live , is still a 'choice'

Sorry Cindy, I can't totally subscribe to that theory as there are a hell of a lot of people that have been denied many things that would have given them the ability to make a "choice" about their work situation and are simply doing the job they have in order to put food in their ( and quite often their childrens ) mouths.

We have choices in every direction we head...............The point is to 'own' your choice and never be negative towards others.

I totally agree that people shouldn't be negative towards others especially as far as photography goes, trouble is that negativety comes from both full time photographers as well as the hobbyist / amateur directed towards each other. There are many reasons for that negativity, not just money.

Money can be a negative driving force for some.........the abundance comes from the heart and the enjoyment of what we do.
Those that are succeeding in their chosen fields are doing so because they simply 'love' what they do.

Absolutely!!! I knew a person that became a very successful real estate salesperson and openly admitted that they loved the money but hated their lifestyle of deception that the job entailed. They died young and wealthy.

Thats the whole point..........when we do something because we love it, we are not worried about the comings and goings of others in the same field.
We have trust in oursleve and our own abilities.

No point being in business, having trust in ones self and ones abilities and never worrying about what anybody else is doing, specially if you want to eat on a daily basis.
That applies to any field really, it aint photography exclusive.