Sheese, SOme people hey?

[Danielle10]

Would like to know other peoples thoughts on this one.

A band I have photographed a few times in the past asked me to shoot them again this weekend.

This is how the text messages went...copied and pasted.

CLIENT: "Hey Ms (oh sorry) Mrs Sheehan !!! Did u feel like bringing ur camera down to the Sando on Sunday night .. We have a gig with Doc and the Angels show, including Buzz, angels original drummer, blow with Lucius borich on drums and a band called Debbie !! .. Should be a big one !! Cheers, Claude"

ME: I just have to check something else, how many hours? And what is the start time? I would need to be paid on the night also. Cheers"

CLIENT: Lol ... Have I let u down in payment ? Are you short of money or struggling ??? Happy to help if latter is the case ... I think it's commercial reality to be paid when u deliver the product not just for turning up ... Im sorry if others have burnt you, i/we certainly haven't ....... PAmazing amount of disrespect and really stupid business sense to treat the people that have shown some appreciation and support for ur work and given u some exposure and encouragement as well as paid u, this way. Forget about the gig ... All good


The first gig i shot was just something out of the blue - they didnt ask me to come I was just out with friends and I had my camera, so just snapped away. The band saw them, loved them and said hey we'd like to buy them from you. I put it all on a disc a week or so later and they paid me then. The 2nd gig they actually asked me to shoot them, and paid me when they received the images.
So other bands and other things Ive shot i get paid at the gig, thats normal right?? So I say this is whats happening now and he goes off his head! I was even going to get contracts etc - after all it has now become "business"

I havent replied - im taking a breather before i write something back i'll regret.

thanks for listening (reading) rant over lol

[MarkChap]

Well can I suggest that the first BIG mistake I see here, is that the arrangements are being made by very impersonal text messages.

To be honest, you did and have trained your client to believe that they can and should pay upon delivery of the goods, which was the arrangement for the first time that they contracted you to shoot them.

after all it has now become "business"

If it is indeed a business and you want to treat it like such, don' conduct business by SMS, get on the phone and at the very least talk directly to them, a face to face would be better

[Danielle10]

Well can I suggest that the first BIG mistake I see here, is that the arrangements are being made by very impersonal text messages.

To be honest, you did and have trained your client to believe that they can and should pay upon delivery of the goods, which was the arrangement for the first time that they contracted you to shoot them.



If it is indeed a business and you want to treat it like such, don' conduct business by SMS, get on the phone and at the very least talk directly to them, a face to face would be better

I agree and understand what you are saying, the first time it just happened as i didnt expect anything, they were just photos for me, but they wanted them. The 2nd time, they were all too drunk to do business with... so i just did my thing.
I dont like the sms in the first place - how rude was he, thinks he's funny.

well you live you learn dont you. Didnt want to do the gig anyway - ive really learnt people in music industry are arrogant *insert profanity here*

[arthurking83]

...... Forget about the gig ... All good



[snip] ......



I havent replied - im taking a breather before i write something back i'll regret.

.....

I wouldn't bother. From the 'tone' in that last comment, I'd be inclined to think it's over and it may be best to move on.

Of course you know them better than I do, but that's my gut feeling about an exchange like that.

[Danielle10]

I wouldn't bother. From the 'tone' in that last comment, I'd be inclined to think it's over and it may be best to move on.

Of course you know them better than I do, but that's my gut feeling about an exchange like that.

yeah its not worth it is it? Actually he's likely to write again if i dont reply saying have I upset you or something stupid like that. he did that once after i had a go at him for editing my already beautifully edited images and posting them on fb. I think he edited them with picassa or something horrible. he said because they are "old rockers" he was trying to make them look young!! Can you believe it! Shoulda just pressed delete after that.
I forgot about that one.... hmmmm..... ok DELETE!

[jasevk]

Walk away and get your voodoo doll out!! Don't reply, take a breath and let it go. Just another person leaching off the good will of talented individuals

[Seabee]

Sounds like communication between both parties hasnt exactly been conducive towards 'business' dealings from the get go!
I would say that you both should learn some healthy lessons from these exchanges and move on!

[Tommo1965]

agree with markchap..get on the blower..sms are for teenagers or asking the missus to bring home bread and milk..not for conducting business .. communication particularly about the money side of things needs to be done in personal way...blame on both parties here

[Allie]

I agree about the texting - too open to misinterpretation. You probably didn't mean it but your text does not read in the same tone as his first and his second shows him getting progressively steamed about it and I kinda get why he has that attitude. What you do from here depends on how you want to run your business (if band photography is the main business focus) and how important client/photographer relations are and if they are going to impact on your business - in this case how much this particular client's impression will impact on that business.

I'd voice call him to clear this up if leaving it like this will have a negative business effect. There are other ways to decline an engagement or impose new conditions that will make the client realise that you are very busy because you are in demand and need to be booked now rather than on the previous casual arrangement. Otherwise, only the fact you required prior payment will be his lasting impression which he may pass to others. If none of this is an issue then, I agree, let it go.

[ricktas]

Agree. Using SMS to conduct a NEW business deal is not on. His first comment "Hey Ms (oh sorry) Mrs Sheehan !!! is unprofesisonal, and actually seems like a dig at you.

As you say he has replied before if you ignore it. Just reply saying "Sorry, I have another booking, and I am not able to attend"

[LJG]

Agree with all above, txt is not a good way to do any sort of business. I am not a professional photographer but have business dealings with lots of people through my work, including ones who can be quite touchy and require special care in dealing with them.

If the band are used to paying on delivery of images and have done so in the past, even if it was only once or twice, that is what they would have expected to happen this time as well. From what I read he starts by thinking it is your financial situation that you want early payment for, then it turns to him taking offence to your asking for payment before delivery of goods. Which says to me he has probably read incorrectly between the lines that you don't trust them for whatever reason.

Changing the usual terms that have been used in the past for any client can be tricky and very easily imply you possibly don't trust them to pay, so needs to be handled with kid gloves. Whether it is done so by mistake or deliberately it is still one of the most damaging things you can do to your relationship with a client. Put simply it embarrasses them and getting the relationship back on track after that has happened can require some serious work.

If I wish to discuss payment options or change normal payment conditions with any client it is preferably done so face to face, or at worst on the phone where reasons etc can be clearly explained without offence to the client. My advice is even if you receive a text booking like that, don't reply by that method other than to say you will phone them to confirm all details or to arrange a meeting for same. The ball is in your court now as to whether you wish to resurrect the booking, just remember people often are very sparing with telling others if you do a great job, but are more prone to tell everybody they can if you didn't.

[mercho]

Agree with the others, i think its a bit too late to salvage... Agree with Rick, Reply saying thanks but you are unable to attent, and put this one down as experience..

I don't really agree with what the person is saying either, I always want at least a deposit before shooting the job either on the day or before hand and definitely before delivering the product...

[ameerat42]

Simple! Drop it there. Not worth/relevant to reply.
Am.

[virgal_tracy]

There are possibly 2 seperate business models that can be looked at with this situation.

It can be treated as an "on spec" job, where you turn up of your own free will, snap away and hope to sell the images to those that are participating.

The 2nd is as the equivalent of a portrait shoot. They have purchased your time to attend (money up front) and then purchase the images that they like or as part of a package for you being there

We have a few sports shooters who operate on spec at events so that is a valid model. We also have portrait shooters, again a valid model.

You need to decide which way you want to go.

Option 3 is to approach the venue to hire you for the night. They get images of people enjoying themselves at the gig, the bands can pay you for what they like and you get a guaranteed income and possible further revenue.

I would ring the band you are dealing with and explain that it is not just them this time but the 2 other bands and while you know and trust the originals you have had no dealings with the other 2 bands and therefore you are wary.

Good luck.

[Wayne]

Changing terms after previous dealings where no justification (failure or late payments) exists, is always going to make a client feel untrusted. What is done is done, I would write this client off.

[Xenedis]

Sounds like communication between both parties hasnt exactly been conducive towards 'business' dealings from the get go!
I would say that you both should learn some healthy lessons from these exchanges and move on!

Bingo.

I think Danielle should move on from this 'client', let the matter rest unattended, and look upon it as a learning experience.

[reaction]

I think you've both misunderstood each other, but it's too late after such a long wait to do any clearing up, it'd just seem fake

[Redgum]

Wouldn't worry about it - hundreds out there to take your place so easy settled as far as the band is concerned. Just make sure your nest is not dirty or move onto another genre.

[MiniFighter]

yep move on. As mentioned above re sms.

Hey, you learn something every day in this hobby/business and it aint always technique related.

IF he does come back with anything silly or petty ask him when he expects to be paid for the gig there doing? my bet is on the night as soon as the gig is over.


Wayne.

[jasevk]

I decided to reply to this topic as an ex-professional musician, and not as a professional photographer.

I wouldn't be losing any sleep over this. There are lots of clowns like this in the business and in most cases, these people have clashes like this with venue staff, sound guys, lighting guys, other bands, street press writers etc on a very regular basis.

If I'm right that this is one of these clowns - and I think I am, then other bands (potential clients) will take the criticism of you with several grains of salt... If not ignored completely. When i was a session drummer, there were a few notorious people about who's comments on producers, bands etc I would completely ignore. So don't be concerned.

All bands get paid at the gig, mostly cash, and there's no reason why you couldn't be paid on the night also - especially considering the language used in their first contact - "bring your camera down"... My tip is that he had no intention of parting with much money, if any for your efforts.

I understand the comments here regarding the use of SMS in a business dealing as an issue, or a mistake... Well actually in the local music business - its not an issue, its probably the preferred means of communication in organizing all aspects of live shows (local music), the other being Facebook.