Access at motorsport

[atky]

To the people with cameras who want to shoot from where I shoot from (sometimes) I earned the rite to shoot from where I shoot I even may have paid for the privilege (I personally haven't paid for the privilege) I have paid for the insurance and I have also paid my dues. So when I come up to you and ask who are you shooting for and you say "I'm shooting for my self and I'm not selling anything but I'm going to be giving some shots away to some mates who are riding or driving" don't be surprised when I get all bent out of shape and tell you what I think.
If you want to shoot from were I shoot earn the privilegee, pay the price, then you may have some Idea what those shots you give away have actualy cost me (me = all the photographers that have payed there dues and their insurance).
You know that job you do for pay, I may just turn up at your place of work and say to your boss Id like to do his job that looks like fun I might just do it for you for free, see how you like that.
I know I can't stop you from shooting for your frends for free and I dont want to, I shoot some of my frends for free but when I tell you you can only shoot from public access areas and tell you with attitude lump it.
End of rant.

[Wayne]

hmmmm....

[zollo]

if I understand correctly you are mostly annoyed by unaccredited persons wanting to shoot from areas reserved for accredited photographers? that I can wholly sympathize with. unless they go through the proper accreditation process - and I know it can be quite involved - they have no business shooting from the areas reserved.

as for trying to make a quid from photography while everyone else wants to give the service away, well... welcome to professional photography

[geoffsta]

Please don't get me wrong here atky. But if I (Hobby Photographer) was at a sporting event, taking photos for myself or for friends. Got up early. Researched all the T & C's. Found an ideal location, that wasn't a clearly designated pro TOG area. And some bloke came up to me ranting that I have pinched his spot, and claimed to be a pro. I would politely tell him to bugger off. Or at least come up with a compromise.

Once again, don't get me wrong. But if I were a pro TOG, and knew that a sporting event was coming up. And was invited by the organizers to take images. And knew that members of the public would also attend the event. I would talk to the officials, get them to create designated Pro TOG area's. After all, it's not just you that would make money out of your images. The event organisers use those images for promotion or for magazines. So it is in their interest to let you get the best shots that you can.

As for you coming to my work and offering to do it for free. You are welcome to it. But be prepared to get your hands dirty. And don't forget to put out out the designated work area signs warning the public to stay clear. And don't forget the weeks of organizing and planning that goes into preparing the area so that members of the public do stay clear.

Personally If you were to come up to me and explained that you were a pro. I would let you have the spot. but be prepaired to have me asking questions all day.

[atky]

You mist the point Geoff I shoot motorsport from inside the fence in nonpublic areas If you are the public and are shooting from public areas I would probably tell you the best spots to shoot from.
The organizerss of events decide who has accesss to areas inside the fence not me that said if the organizerss have an arrangement that X photographer has exclusive accesss to ensure continuity of coverage respect that, don't tell me you've got just as much rite to be there as the photographer that is there every day in the rain in the heat when he or she would rather be somewhere else or they get up at four in the morning to get there.
As for getting my hands dirty you have no idea some of the types of work I have done Motor industry, Army, Construction, Sales, ETC no silver spoon in my mouth.

[MiniFighter]

Giving you some feeback from the persective of a hobbyist/hack photographer...

If it was/is inside the fence area where you do need permission to shoot from, wouldn't a word to the marshal's/organizers/safety officials be more beneficial to both you and the hobbyist rather than having a rant and coming across as a stuck up photographer?

I, in no way sell, promote or even encourage sales of any of my images, Nor do i want to...ever. And i do nothing other than show friends and family and post here (occasionally) for CC. If i were at an event and seen a prime spot to shoot from, and there was no signage, no barricades etc keeping me out or advising me not to enter, then that's where id be.

[geoffsta]

I went to post this earlier, but the site gave a database error.

Now I understand.. In the heat of the moment, and fired up. You forgot to mention the inside the fence bit in the opening post.
I too would be a bit miffed in that situation. And if that person has no right to be in that area, an official should have been called to remove him from that location. Unless he has permission from the organizers to be there. And if that were the case, the organizers should have explained to that person the professional photographer has the right of way in that situation. Certainly not your fault, or the fault of the hobbyist. Just a lack of communication. And if that person were to be aggressive about leaving. An official could have been called to remove him/her.

[atky]

Wayneo I never called anybody a hack and we are all hobbyists at some point I'm probably more of a hobbyist at the moment. All I'm saying is if you think access is your rite think again.
The fact is most hobbyists are great and are good fun to interact with it's the semi pro (put me in that class) who has no respect or little understanding of the amount of time and work over a long period of time it takes to get the recognition from organizerss and officials that allows accesss.

[MiniFighter]

Wayneo I never called anybody a hack and we are all hobbyists at some point I'm probably more of a hobbyist at the moment. All I'm saying is if you think access is your rite think again.
The fact is most hobbyists are great and are good fun to interact with it's the semi pro (put me in that class) who has no respect or little understanding of the amount of time and work over a long period of time it takes to get the recognition from organizerss and officials that allows accesss.

Lol all good mate, i was calling myself a hack. As for the access, as i said unless there is something that states "No Access" then most will venture on.

[Redgum]

I've been doing photography professionally for over 30 years and never had a blue with any monkey trying to get a good shot. As long as they don't stand in front of me that's great. In most cases it's a real plus cause if you screw up a shot (particularly with sport) you know someone else could have it. Like an insurance policy. Just make sure you have a portable hard drive in your pocket so you can copy his CF card (with permission of course).
Actually, if his shots are any good buy his CF card off him. Bribery and corruption are great tools. I'm sure you use them every day of your life.

[KeeFy]

5 extra cents. Please don't take this the wrong way. At the end of the day what that WILL differentiate you to the "hack hobbyists" is the quality of the photos. As long as you get a compelling enough photograph you've got nothing to be worried about. Also what the guys said: A marshall is all that is needed

[johndom]

rite is not right.

[atky]

Ah yes but people being people many of them would rather have a free ordinary shot than a good one they have to pay for. Some make that a lot of armature shooters are very good photographers and in some cases as good if not better than a lot of prose.

[Redgum]

Atky said:

Some make that a lot of armature shooters are very good photographers and in some cases as good if not better than a lot of proes.

Ha Ha! If amateurs were as good as professionals they would be (professionals that is). There's much more to taking a good photograph than standing in a chosen spot.
And I guess you could count on one hand the number of people on this website who have actually ever bought a photograph.

[geoffsta]

Ha Ha! If amateurs were as good as professionals they would be (professionals that is). There's much more to taking a good photograph than standing in a chosen spot.
And I guess you could count on one hand the number of people on this website who have actually ever bought a photograph.

Somehow I don't know how to take the above remark.
There are certainly many members on this site who are better than most professionals. Maybe they choose not to be professional because they don't have the time or couldn't be bothered with the hassle that goes with the job. Or maybe they just don't want to ruin the enjoyment they get out of having photography as a hobby.
And why would these members need to buy a photograph. When they can go out and take a better one anyway. (I certainly don't count myself as one of these members)

[atky]

This is going of track but some great photographers chose not to be professional and good luck to them, they enjoy what they do and don't want to make it a job. Many I would suggest are successfully in other fields and have no desire to make a living from it. I think there may even be a few members on this site that would fall into that category. So to say "if they were as good as professionals they would be", is I think one very big statement.
The above post was being posted as I typed.

[Redgum]

Don't be too serious - it's a tongue in cheek remark.
Just keep in mind though the relationship between being a professional and being a good photographer is tenuous at best. A good professional is a good business person. To be a good amateur you need to be a good photographer.
Some seem to think that if a person takes a good photograph then that person is professional - couldn't be further from the truth. That person is simply a good photographer.

[kiwi]

Hmm, the primary issue here is whoever giving away all their photos for free to competitors. Free always beats good in the sport game. If I see a mum/dad/friend on a sideline with a 70-200 these days I just keep on walking

[arthurking83]

So the issue here is that someone that you don't really know shouldn't be allowed to give away freebies to their mates, and that only a (semi)pro is allowed to occasionally give away some freebies to some of their mates?

Is that the way I'm reading the issue?

Basically what you're saying is that I'm not allowed to come to a spot close to you, even if the organisers have allowed me that privilege! .. and shoot my 'ol man, my best mate, or my son all hooning around the track and get some photos for my purposes and/or theirs!!

And that only pros/semi pros are allowed to take shots of the competitors just so that have a larger audience to sell too, even if that may only be one or two customers that they miss out on!


this is a great example of ambassadorship for photography! .. a brilliant step in the right direction for the cause, I reckon!


I think if we all adhere to these philosophies strictly and teach them to all school children from prep to 3rd year tertiary, the end result is that basically we should all give away out cameras now.(why prolong the inevitable!)

While the designated areas are off limits today, tomorrow the entire venue will be off limits, and then the next ultimate step is that the entire world will become off limits to anyone with a camera that doesn't hold some form of accreditation to prove that only they have the ability to shoot with a camera. And this accreditation must specify that only people interested in making money from capturing photos can only be accredited .. and that's that.

And there is no ifs or butts to the matter .. this is the way it's going to end up otherwise all these poor pros will end up in the doghouse with no prospects.






MAAATE! You're more than welcome to come to my work and do what I do for free .. I'll take as much time off as you do it for free for, and sell my house and do a bit of travelling too.

But even if you do it fro free, you stuff it up once, and you get the arse! .. no if or butts!
They can afford the peanuts they pay me, but what they can't afford the stuffing up of a few grands worth of goods getting from one place to the next!


The moral of the story is that nothing beats quality .. and (most)people pay for quality.

eg. if you got a Sigma SD-1 for free, would you then use it as your preferred camera over your pro level Canon and it's Canon lenses? Having the Sigma is restricting you to only Sigma lenses, and while some of them are great, there are many holes in the lineup compared to Canon/Nikon lenses.


Like Redgum said .. being a pro is not about just taking good shots. It's about the ability to market sell and promote.

A pro is someone who simply does that .. (sell)!

A great pro is someone who does it all the time, even in competition to the myriad of freebies available out there!

Darwin's theory comes to mind here!
It's simple.
If you don't adapt you die, and that's just a process that is now happening in the pro photographer community.
Those too lazy or tired to compete in the 'new world' are dyin, have died or will soon die.(not literally, photographically speaking)

Those that are regarded as great pro photographers simply have a better(or luckier) grasp of the current market, and have adapted to it better.

[Speedway]

I’m with Steve here. I shoot a fair bit of motorsport, (and sell a few photos, not enough to make a living though, I don't give photos away) at the lower levels i.e. Go Karts, local Off Road, Quad and ATV events and have gone through the process of making myself known, finding out the requirements (insurance etc), purchasing the correct safety gear and registering at the events. Then when I find others out there that shouldn’t be there. I get annoyed too. Also I raced upper end Speedway for many years and have albums full of photos by the track pros that I have payed for. I also have a few I have taken from the spectator and pit area while my son was racing but we still bought photos from the pros as their view is far better. This year I am going to try and build up a portfolio to be able to apply for accreditation at higher levels.
Keith.