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kaiser
11-07-2013, 7:57pm
Im starting this thread in the hope to generate some positive, healthy discussion and critical thinking about the future of our country, and to a greater extent, the world. Im not one to post up political rants and generally have avoided such discussions all my life. I haven't really taken a great interest in politics growing up. I'll admit that I have been quite apathetic and ignorant, seemingly thinking that politics didn't affect me. So long as I was bringing home a pay and had a roof over my head, I was pretty happy.

Driving home from work the other day, I heard the results of a survey on the voting youth of Australia and how many of them paid any interest to politics. A large percentage didn't- as they perceived the election issues/policies weren't relevant to them. A fellow went on to say that this disinterest was really a politicians best friend- as they were votes that they had a fair chance of securing without having to do any legwork.

So I wondered what the core issue was with me not paying any serious attention to politics and it came down to the fact that it was because I didnt understand how the system worked. I basically put it into the "too hard" basket.

I find it incredibly convenient that we are taught religion in school- but nothing about the Australian Constitution.
I have nothing against people who choose to follow a religion- but I think knowing our rights and the founding laws of our country are just as important. Why is this not taught at school? It's almost as if thinking for yourself is discouraged.
We are bombarded with mainstream media and there is so much crap on television these days, that mine now only sees use for the occasional movie or doco. I now see all the news programs as a comedy channel- because the quality and accuracy of journalism is so appalling that you cant take it seriously. And yet many do so, without questioning or really thinking about it.

More and more rules and regulations are put into place. You can't do this, can't do that. A new fee for this, another tax for that.
The Australian attitude of 'She'll be right" means that we sit back and take all this change that is blatantly not in our interests and feel powerless to do anything about it.

When I look at my choices this coming election I feel a little disheartened- and that no current party has Australia's best interests as priority. A little bit of George Orwell's 1984 comes to mind. I know some will discount this as just another loony rant- but really I'm just an average guy with an average job, getting a bit tired of the continual incompetence and corruption. Ill go put my tin foil hat on now and sit in the corner.

ameerat42
11-07-2013, 8:07pm
Kaiser. Two things:
1. When has it been/do you ever expect things to be any different?
(The Halcyon Days are a myth, just as is the present state of purported dysfunction.)
2. Why stop at country?

Rest assured, what ever you heard is surely inaccurate, so don't worry be... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU).
Am. (As in a wee drAm, occasionally.)

PS: Take the aforesaid as a "yes"/"no"/"pinch of salt".
PPS: forgot to add: DON'T listen to "dork-back radio", they get scared by their own shadows - when there's no light!

danny
11-07-2013, 8:11pm
Interesting post Kaiser.

I heard the stats also about the amount of 18-25yr olds that aren't enrolled and although I can't recall the exact number (%) I too was amazed at how high the number was. But has this changed?

The media certainly has fallen recently. It use to be that editorial news (pushing an agenda) was the exception, now it appears to be the norm. For me (although I am rather biased) I still see positives in the Australian political landscape by looking past the agendas in the media. Today the ABC broadcasted the PM's conversation from the press club. To watch the entire thing, not just the 10sec sound grab usually presented via most media outlets, was very informative.

And finally, government (local through to federal) is taught in NSW DEC schools in every year of primary school.

Great post... Thanks

Danny

Mark L
11-07-2013, 8:15pm
When I look at my choices this coming election I feel a little disheartened-

That's how I've felt for the 50+ years of my voting life.
Used to live in a safe Labor electorate, my vote didn't count. Now live in a safe National Party seat, my vote doesn't count.:confused013
The Senate is were my vote may count.
There are ways other than voting to influence what pollies think.
There are ways to get out in the community and help and make a difference, regardless of politics.

kaiser
11-07-2013, 8:36pm
Kaiser. Two things:
1. When has it been/do you ever expect things to be any different?
(The Halcyon Days are a myth, just as is the present state of purported dysfunction.)
2. Why stop at country?

Rest assured, what ever you heard is surely inaccurate, so don't worry be... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU).
Am. (As in a wee drAm, occasionally.)

PS: Take the aforesaid as a "yes"/"no"/"pinch of salt".
PPS: forgot to add: DON'T listen to "dork-back radio", they get scared by their own shadows - when there's no light!

Perhaps it hasn't been any different- I'm still in the process of giving myself a long history lesson to discover just that. For someone just coming on board though it feels like we're gaining momentum on a downhill path rather than rolling gently along a plateau.

If we dont expect things to be any different, how are we meant to effect any positive change?

P.S. I have taken your yes/no/pinch of salt on board ;)
P.P.S. The radio station was just Triple J and just happened to be a very short segment in between music. I don't listen to talk back per se.

MattNQ
11-07-2013, 10:01pm
To be honest,I have given up expecting anything resembling hope from mainstream politics, business, society , or even western (or eastern for that matter) civilisation itself.
Perhaps a reflection of my current darkly cynical state of mind...,maybe that is why I love shooting cemeteries....the silence is comforting...the dead are so much more easier to live with??

The Australian media is so full of tripe it is frustrating. We have never had so much information at our fingertips , but it is so contrived, manipulated & influenced by minority thinking and personal agendas it sh!ts me to tears.
Crikey.com.au are perhaps one of the few exceptions .

While it is perhaps normal and fashionable normal to tear down the 'outdated' standards of the society our parents handed us, I'm wondering if in questioning and breaking down the former foundations of society, rather than a new-found freedom and self-defined utopia, we seem destined for utter chaos, as nothing of substance is replacing it.

There are no longer any statesmen(or women) with backbone to lead this country into the future. Geez, the labour party fishing team had K.rudd on the hook, didn't get a bite, changed the bait to Ms Gillard to see if they could land a nice fat government..now it seems they have changed back to the old bedraggled bait again in the vain hope of success. I have no idea which party will get my vote....none are shining brightly...

I've been reading some of the writings of the Dark Mountain Project recently, which seem to follow similar lines of thinking to what has been floating around my head recently.

http://dark-mountain.net/about/manifesto
Like me, you may not agree with everything they state, but their mindset is refreshing in this age of conformity to a society dominated and defined by the popular media....

Sometimes one wonders whether another World War is required to clean out the dross & re-align the lens we see the world through...Hmm did I say all that out loud...????

I love the quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson

"The end of the human race will be that it will
eventually die of civilisation".

end of rant. Sorry it is not positive Kaiser, I'm having a hard time seeing positives at the moment :D

kaiser
11-07-2013, 10:24pm
All good. By positive I didnt mean everyone had to be all sunshine rainbows and lollipops, just meant I didnt want the thread degenerating into the usual internet forum arguments. I was just interested in hearing peoples opinions on such matters. Thanks for the contributions so far.

WhoDo
12-07-2013, 9:17am
You want to affect change? Become the minority!

Voting in elections doesn't bring change. Politicians of any persuasion are self-deluded enough to think people are voting for ALL of their policy initiatives, instead of simply choosing the lesser of two evils.

So how does one become "the minority"? Easy, make an appointment and walk into your local member's office to tell them exactly what you think! When they spruik in the party room or parliament that "... the electorate wants ..." something, they really mean those who were concerned enough to voice those concerns when and where they couldn't be ignored.

It's all too easy to say "... our local member doesn't represent our views" when we haven't made them clear. Am I supporting the politicians? No way! I've made my feelings clear before about the legislative and regulatory classes controlling our collective destiny for their own gain. The point is that the only place they can be hurt is in the ballot box, but by the time you get there it's too late for them to change. Get in early, when they're participating in the formation of policy, and TELL THEM what you need (with an implied "or else"). Just my AUD$0.02c

old dog
12-07-2013, 10:17am
I grew up in Newcastle which is/was/could still be a labour voting stronghold. I dont know what the feeling is now with so much change.....closing down the industries like steel works, dockyard etc has cheesed people off. I agree with most posters here that people in general are getting browned off with the media and the polly spin......so who/what side does one give alleigence (sp?) to?.......who will deliver the least damage overall?

The world is in a state of flux.....there are little wars in a lot of places and budding big wars on the horizon so it is difficult to be positive. All we can do is our enlightened best, take care of our loved ones, try and be positive and hopefully the finger will be kept of that red button :D

Steve Axford
12-07-2013, 10:51am
We get the politicians we deserve. And the media - after all, it is us who watch and listen to them. Become involved. Don't just sit back and be cynical.

ameerat42
12-07-2013, 3:19pm
The trouble with this thread is that nothing here does not also apply elsewhere in the world.
And remember that it is said: those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. So, think that it's always been bad and it won't get much w:eek:rse!
:rolleyes:m.

kaiser
12-07-2013, 6:40pm
I thought my opening sentence made it pretty clear that the whole world is going this way. This should make the issue even more significant, not less? Im trying to understand where you're coming from- are you saying that because the issues I brought up happen on a global scale, that they arent worth discussing?

I guess we can all stick our heads in the sand and pretend that everything will be okay. To think that things won't get any worse Im guessing was a tongue in cheek comment surely. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that a growing population and a dwindling supply of finite natural resources will lead to harsher times ahead.

Im just trying to be a little more long sighted and thinking about what lies ahead for the generations ahead of us.

I will write to my local MP, but I dont hold much hope in my views being taken seriously.

ameerat42
12-07-2013, 6:50pm
I think I might have been suggesting a bit of bright sidery:D:lol::) to offset the suggested doom and gloom:(:eek::o
That's OK, isn't it? Or isn't it?
Am (with tongue-in-cheek, head-in-sand, and other body parts variously deployed).

Duane Pipe
15-07-2013, 3:21pm
I don't pay attention to our political system because its run by children that are out to line their own pockets. They give them selves $50.000 pay rises and the average worker gets $2.00. It makes my blood boil and there is nothing I can do to change things, Vote Liberal or Labor it doesn't matter.

What happened in Egypt is what should happen here I reckon, over throw the government, Assassinate them, show them that we are fed up with their shit, Stand as One.

That's my rant:)

old4570
15-07-2013, 3:42pm
Hmm , why vote when it makes no difference ?
Australia is not a democracy , Politicians dont listen to the people , dont bend to the will of the people , and have little interest in serving the people ..

So what do we have ?

A two party dictatorship is what you have ..
It matters not which party is in power as either will dictate their will to the people and we are expected to obey !
Both parties will push as hard as they dare , every election taking a little more from the people .

So why vote ?
Especially when so many are entrenched in their political party , much like their favorite football team ..
Grand dad was a Collingwood supporter , Dad is a Collingwood supporter , and Im a Collingwood supporter , with this sort of horse and buggy thinking , no wonder many see Australians as politically stupid .

Want to see change ? , want to see the Politicians work for the people rather than against them ?
Then " WE THE PEOPLE " must bring them to heel , and the only way is to vote out both Lib and Lab parties ..
Neither party has done squat in the last 20 years +

Vote them out , break their backs , fill the upper and lower house with independents ...
Only then will the Traitors in Canbera get the message ... ( You work for us - and now your fired )

Do the Australian people have the BALLS to do this , the intelligence , the political will ?

So why should young people bother voting ? Dont ask me , as Im still wondering why Australians are so willing to bend over ? or vote the way dad or grand dad did ?
I guess every election the sheeple have their say ... And dont the politicians know it !

And thats my 5c worth !

Kid's , dont waste your time voting , not till mum and dad grow a pair !

ameerat42
15-07-2013, 4:06pm
All right youse guise. Now you've gone and upset Kaiser. He wanted a positive discussion.
One thing's for sure: just DON'T vote yourselves in, or we'll end up with another dictatorship of the proletariat. (And I mean proletariat!)
That's just another RED RAG to a(nother load of) BULL(shirts!).
Am(not looking forward to much now).

kaiser
15-07-2013, 5:15pm
Actually, I've found all the responses so far very interesting.

Mark L
15-07-2013, 7:33pm
Hmm , why vote when it makes no difference ?
.........
........
So why vote ?
........
..........., and the only way is to vote out both Lib and Lab parties .....


Vote them out , ...



So why should young people bother voting ? ..........

Sounds like a good reason to vote.:)
and young people should vote so they cancel out their parents vote. I don't thing they're as sheepish as you think.

ameerat42
15-07-2013, 7:59pm
Sounds like a good reason to vote.:)
and young people should vote so they cancel out their parents vote. I don't thing they're as sheepish as you think.

That's bar-barring black sheep of course! Otherwise, nothing like turning an argument on its head.
:nzsheep:m.

Dug
15-07-2013, 8:33pm
P.P.S. The radio station was just Triple J and just happened to be a very short segment in between music. I don't listen to talk back per se.

You could do a lot worse than listening to Triple J, they call themselves the youth network and I think they do a good job of bringing youth relevant issues to the attention of their listeners.
They are proactive in bring to the attention the importance of youths having their say and and to using their vote.

Well they got you thinking so they must be doing something right. (and the musics good)

aussie girl
15-07-2013, 9:23pm
I am afraid I have become very disillusioned with our political system and the people who are "running" our country. We are supposed to have a democratic society, but isn't that supposed to mean "one man one vote". Unfortunately, that is not how it works. If you look at how the electorates are carved up, you can have a very small electorate with a few thousand people and that is one seat and you can have another huge electorate with many thousands of people and that is also one seat. If I vote for Joe Bloggs of the Whatsit party then I expect my vote to be for that person and that party, but that is not what happens. If Joe Bloggs doesn't get enough votes to be elected, then all those votes for him get given to another candidate and so on and so forth until an eventual "winner" gets lots of votes (with a lot of help from the preferences he/she has been given from those not elected) so my vote for the Whatsit party can end up going to the opposition party without my knowledge because somewhere along the line my vote was handed to another candidate in another entirely different party. I think the preferences should be done away with. If you don't get elected then that's it and that vote becomes null and void.

I am sick of my tax dollars going to politicians who are in parliament for a few years and then retire on fat pensions for the REST OF THEIR LIVES!!!!! whilst I will have to scrape an existence with whatever I have put away in super, less tax, less what ever has been lost (due to it being gambled by the super company on the stock exchange) and I will have my tax dollars paying for all the lurks and perks of each and every politician's wives and children once those politicians have carked it!
I would love some of the independent candidates to be given a go at sitting in the top seats, but their chances of ever getting in are pretty remote due to the way the votes are divvied up.
Much of the media is very one eyed towards one particular party, and no wonder, when that particular party is pro business. No wonder most of the news reports and nearly all the polls are tending to lean towards the party that is not currently in government. What nasty little deals are being done under the table to poison the average voters minds into thinking that the other party is a lost cause?
There is such a lot that we can learn from what has been happening overseas, and Greece is a prime example. Are we really that different? Look at all the fat cats with their heads in the trough in our own government departments. The novel/movie Animal Farm by George Orwell comes to mind. Look at all the corruption that is going on overseas, and is beginning to happen here, with big businesses and corporations destroying our resources and the natural environment in the search for huge profits for their shareholders. The companies involved in fracking in the United States continue to be protected by the government whilst they contaminate ground water and ruin peoples lives and livelihoods, and large food companies who fill their foods with genetically modified crops are also protected by the government despite the known risks that these genetically modified foods can pose.
As a little fish in a big pond it is very easy to just sink to the bottom and stay out of sight for fear of being gobbled up and spat out by the bigger fish who are circling above, cutting off any chance of the little fish coming up for air. "Evil prevails because good people do nothing" is a very apt saying, but not many good people are willing to put themselves in the firing line when so many bigger and more powerful people/companies are in control.

It will take a heck of a lot of education of the general population to bring about significant change to out political system. The average person doesn't seem to understand the significance of some of the decisions being made by our pollies, and many people have some sort of memory loss when it comes to some of the stuff that both parties have sprung on us in the past, and this memory loss also has spread over to the news media companies as well.

what hope is there??? :confused013

bobt
15-07-2013, 9:25pm
I can understand your frustrations. We are each of us just one small voice in a largely apathetic political universe. This was brought home to me last year when my wife (retired, but an active political lobbyist) spent several years heading a lobby group which tried to prevent our Government from sabotaging an international treaty. My understanding of how politicians work was greatly enhanced by this experience as it became obvious that both of our major political parties are ultimately beholden to the US Government rather than to the Australian electorate.

Individual politicians will often privately agree that they support various ethical and moral decisions yet are bound by our political system to adhere to the party line. At the end of the day, our political representatives do not represent our views or those of the electorate - they vote and act in accordance with political imperatives rather than moral ones; and we are effectively disenfranchised.

This is not helped by the Australian people themselves who are so often willing to have their votes "purchased" by promises from both parties, few of which ever eventuate. When the Australian public becomes a little more discerning, a little better educated and a lot less gullible, perhaps we will have a better chance of electing truly effective leaders. Recent innovations such as Election Fact Check (https://theconversation.com/au/factcheck/articles) and Politifact Australia (http://www.politifact.com.au/) are a useful step forward in making our politicians justify their sometimes outrageous claims.

aussie girl
15-07-2013, 9:34pm
The "Wheat Board Scandal" is a prime example of corruption at it's worst. Our government was involved in supplying arms to the country that we were supposed to be sanctioning, which in my book is nothing short of treason. But Johnny Howard was in control of the Senate, and a ruling was voted in that would prevent him or his cronies from being charged with any crime (if and when they got found out) The British prime minister did not get off so lightly, but no criminal charges were ever brought about for any of those involved in that act of treason.

Mark L
15-07-2013, 10:14pm
I like living in Oz, and wouldn't live anywhere else.:)
I have the right to vote (and assign my preferences, no one else can do that if you vote below the line), I have the right to post my views here (as do you), I have the right to go and join organisations that I think can advance what I think is right. I have the right to complain and do nothing, or write a letter to an editor as part of doing something. I can talk to people and freely tell them what I think (though I'm a little sick of hearing what they think:D).
We can go on about pollies, but what makes a difference is people doing things for others (and each other) in the communities we live in.
I could go on, but I'm also thankful that no one will send a bomb my way if I do.

Cage
15-07-2013, 11:20pm
Unfortunately, for we, the voters, there are not too many who enter political life with any real deep-seated convictions to improve the lot of their fellow man.

Ego, and the advantageous opportunities being in a position of trust offers, is probably the motivation for most. And any who dare step over the party line are soon slapped, severely, on the wrist.

Wouldn't it be nice to see a party, of whatever political persuasion, actually 'governing', and not spending 95% of their time and energy 'politicking'.

Yeah, in ya' dreams Kev!

old4570
16-07-2013, 12:58am
Well , another issue , we are over governed !
We have 3 levels of government , and more politicians per ca-pita than almost any other country in the world ...
As well as the largest public sector just about anywhere ...

Almost 50% of the working population have a vested interest in the status quot ..
The private sector is shrinking , manufacturing is shrinking , exports are shrinking

And on the other end of the stick

Imports are on the rise , the public sector is growing , and more money is going over seas ...

It does not take an Einstein to see this can not keep going this way , sure its good news for multi nationals , but its very bad news for the Average joe six pack !

This country is seriously top heavy , and I dont think politicians are going to didle themselves out of a job ! or a big fat pay check for doing sweet F all !

We need far fewer politicians , maybe 2 levels of government , we need to bring back manufacturing ..

This country used to ride on a sheep's back , then we had recession , now we ride on the back of mining - for how long ?

How long will the next recession last ?

When will the Gooberment get of its fat lard butt , and actually do something ?

All the talk / BS - coming from Canbera ? For how long have they talked ? 20+ years and no actual positive action to bring manufacturing back to this country ...

How long can we survive when we dont make stuff ? or dont have a strong manufacturing base ?

We simply cant afford to import everything , its a road to certain destruction .

I personally would call it a National emergency , alarm bells should be sounding , the media should be screaming , and the Sheeple , well what can I say about the sheeple ..

There is an old saying , People get the government they deserve !

I dont blame the criminals in Canbera , I blame the idiots that put them there , decade after decade !

If it wasnt so sad , it would be the greatest joke ever .

Mathy
16-07-2013, 2:13am
Hi Kaiser, thank you for raising a most interesting topic. You are right, we live in a complicated democracy as far as understanding the preferential voting system, and yes, it should be taught at school, so that young voters are prepared when it comes their time to enrol.

There is so much to take on board and so many political undercurrents to be wary of.

For example, in QLD, there currently is a move to enforce the production of ID before voting. This historically disadvantages those who may not have a driver's license e.g.:, the young, the elderly and the indigenous. A good method of removing a chunk of potential voters.

I'm 56yo and have the good fortune to live in South Australia, where we had a Liberal Premier of great political vision for many years - Sir Thomas Playford, who was followed by Don Dunstan, a Labor Premier, who did equally many great things - we were extremely fortunate.

However, at a State level, all that good, by those 2 leaders from opposite sides has been undone in the following years of reign by each political party.

I have no idea as to what age group you belong to, but I can suggest the following ideas as potential sources of education and a chance to contribute towards change.

1. Understand the voting system and how it works. Making a wise choice in the Senate can often bring about better representation for you than your 'local' member. For example, SA got Nick Xenophon into the Senate at the Federal level, he had previously been an Upper House member at the State level, got voted in on a 'No Pokies' campaign. He's hard working, and takes up the issues that people are concerned about.

2. Don't give up on Triple J, the ABC (despite what the Murdoch Press and the Liberal Party say), is a neutral observer, they will alway try to present both points of view, sometimes one side doesn't want to be interviewed, not much they can do about that.

3. Try having a read of www.getup.org.au (http://www.getup.org.au) They are a Not for Profit, people driven lobby group - this is a place where you can raise your issues and it's free to join, and very satisfying when they achieve change. They're not aligned to a political party, they're aligned with the people of this country. And they have a lot of people behind them.

Lastly, this week, Gough Whitlam turned 97yo - wow! It made me think that there are no 'Statesmen' left in politics (and I use this term in the generic sense that would include women). I don't feel proud of the way that our politicians represent our country, the way that Gough W, Malcolm Fraser et al did. We no longer have leaders who are prepared to have the big vision and lead, we are stuck with poll driven worms who can't be trusted with anything. Even John Howard (and I'm not a fan of his) was recycled 3 times before he got the gig, and he then benefited from a huge government income based on the mining boom.

So, do all that you can to educate yourself, and then pass your learning onto your friends. But, above all, believe that there are places that you can participate and make a difference. The internet promotes freedom of speech, you don't have to listen to the monopoly of the Murdoch/Fairfax Press or the 10s grabs that constitute the news on commercial TV/Radio, there's the ABC and SBS - TV, Radio and internet.

Thank you, once again, cheers Deb :)

old4570
16-07-2013, 11:05am
Here is one !

Did the Labor Gooberment pass the legislation to make Bank Robbery Legal for the Feds ? ( I dont remember as there was very little id any noise from the sheeple )

I f mem serves , any bank account that remains dormant ( untouched for 7 years ? ) can be confiscated by the feds ,

Now call me old fashioned , but if you know something does not belong to you , and you know it belongs to some one else , and you take it , thats stealing ! And if I understand it correctly , the Labor government has legalized theft for itself ... Or in this case Bank robbery .

Now call me PINK on this one , but to me , that is a seriously dangerous precedent . Because the sheeple made very little if any noise about it at all , not even a ( Baaa )
I wonder if 50 years ago that would have been the case ?

Now how about the Prime minister that thought War crimes was a good idea , or treason , or Lying
Basically over 70% or was it 80% of Australians said No to attacking a sovereign nation that had done nothing to us ..
Prime minister say's stuff U , Lies to us about the need to go there , and basically aids and abets in the unlawful killing of over 300,000 people , and the complete destruction of a country .
And they called the tsunami in Japan a disaster ....

So I call Australians Sheeple now , politically speaking I have little to no respect for the Australian voter , because the voter is not holding elected officials responsible for their actions , not even for bank robbery or war crimes .
How pathetic have voters in this country become , I dont blame young people for not wanting to be Voters or registering to vote .. Honestly , who wants to be associated with such a pathetic hopeless group of people that let politicians do anything they want , even when they know its wrong , criminal , stupid , treasonous to use a few choice words ..

I used to think of myself as an Australian , hell I was born here , but now , Im not so sure anymore . My fellow voters are so hopeless , so hell bent on self destruction , so politically correct , they make me sick to the pit of my stomach . ( politically speaking )

The average voter is a political moron , and I look forward to the day the politicians decide that we are no longer intelligent enough to vote ( they know that already ) .
And I dont say this as an opinion , but rather fact that can be backed up with over 30 years of evidence ..

Australians need to wake up from their political slumber , take notice of what the criminals are doing in Canbera , and do whats right !
Politicians have no allegiance to the people , so why do people align themselves with the political parties no matter what ? Because they are stupid !
If you are a member of the Lib or Lab parties and I have offended you , then GOOD , you should be offended , you should be outraged , angry , and come the election , vengeful ...

Vote out Labor Vote out the Liberals Vote independent

And this is what I say and do every election ...

And the sheeple do what the sheeple do , and the government knows this ...

Which is why we have the government , we have !

And thats why voting is a waste of time .

Choosing between two criminal ( in my opinion ) organizations , is not really a choice at all ...

And now thats 10c from me , and enough !

kaiser
16-07-2013, 11:44am
Glad to see people contributing their thoughts into this. If you look at it as a worldwide problem is really is quite a massive and daunting topic to bring up. Daunting enough that it is easier to not talk about and just roll with the punches. Alarm bells should indeed be ringing. Instead we have a lot of talk from the Pollies and not a lot of action.

I believe I am a part of that problem- as of yet I haven't physically done anything (apart from starting this discussion) to make my voice heard. I guess its up to us as the voters to see how much power we actually hold.
After seeing issues such as the massive pay increase dished out to MPs in a matter of days, while I have to go into arbitration for 2 years just to secure a 2.2% rise as well as a loss of conditions- just a joke. To have the hide to call it an "indepndent" tribunal that made that decision....

The media can't even get their facts right on the issues that matter most of the time. Even when they do bring up a really good point, it ends up being drowned out by the rest of the irrelevant crap (Justin Bieber's latest haircut, the royal birth etc etc).

Now I'm not a Greens supporter for various reasons, but I do very much care about this planet. How much screen time / print space is being given to the rapidly accelerating death of the Barrier Reef- compared to the trashy gossip stories. You might see a 60 second story outlining the devastation, and promises of more "talks" "negotiations" and "review panels"- and then the story vanishes as quickly as it appeared. Some time down the track the issue may resurface- only for us to discover that all the "review panels" couldnt agree on a decision that wouldnt threaten profits- and so the status quo remains or some watered down, half baked measures are put in places to give the appearance of action.

I realise that for our own well being and sanity that we need to maintain some positivity as ameerat pointed out. However if things keep going the way they are, I can't help but see our problems only getting worse. It's easy enough to be jovial when you only have to consider what years you have left here- but what about our future generations?

Am I being way too naive? Has the earth been deteriorating since we first populated- and is what I'm seeing in my miniscule amount of time here just way things always have been and will be?

Perhaps there is some sense in what MattNQ posted- and that civilisation as we know it has an expiration date.

Allie
17-07-2013, 12:50am
You certainly will get heard if you make enough noise, it is a matter of picking your battles and diving in! Unfortunately there are a lot of issues that do need fixing and, while some are being attended to, they often do not get reported as the media chooses what to print and sensationalism wins out as we are told the "audience" need shock, drama and seeing the most cut-throat individual winning. Why else do we get footballers or politicians poor behaviour reported in multiple pages at the front of newspapers or as leading news stories elsewhere while real issues (if reported at all) are tucked away in the later pages or as fillers.

There is more to life than this or politics and I don't let it rule my life .... amazing things get done by people every day who want to change things for others or their community or in aid of particular issues and these things get done by people getting out and doing them. Just because there is an uneven sharing of the community pie and a constant barrage of negativity from politicians in government, it does not mean you need to accept it and watch things whither away. The world has changed a lot even in the last 20 years and is quite disheartening to see the apathy of so many people but that does not mean you have to be one of them! If you need to know more then educate yourself, otherwise pick an issue and get involved - it truly is wonderful what one individual can do if they try and you will find that that one individual has a lot of companions who feel the same way and are willing to help make things happen.

Be informed, vote or not as you see fit but get involved - even do as little as use social media if necessary to get issues out there because if things concern you, then only you can make the choice to do something about it - some politician sitting on a bench in parliament also has to pick his/her issues and if you can make those issue one of yours then fantastic, but if not ..... do it yourself!

ricktas
17-07-2013, 6:54am
I am more concerned about the direction our mainstream media is heading. They create news these days, rather than report it. They use the slightest small glance or remark and turn it into frontpage news.

More people died each year in the years before the 'pink batt scandal', whilst installing insulation than died during the insulation scheme, yet our media hype up the situation and blame Kevin Rudd for the deaths. What next we blame Julia Gillard for all the car related deaths cause she was leader when they gave hundreds of $M to the car industry?

They take a 10 second sound bite out of a 15 minute speech and put it on the tv news and with their own reporters dialogue completely misdirect the viewer as to what the intent of the 15 minute speech was about.

Illegal immigration, we have a problem, yes, but we do not have the worlds biggest one. Greece (that country that is basically bankrupt) has a population of around 11M people. And it gets around 100,000 illegal immigrants every quarter. They come into the EU via Greece cause it neighbours Turkey, and they come through Northern Africa and round the Mediterranean sea and enter the EU through Greece. The EU policy is that if an illegal is found they are not sent back to country of origin, they are sent back to the country through which they entered the EU. At one point Greece had over 1M people in detention centres. It asked the UN for help, and was refused.

Yet our media looks at our illegal immigration issues as being huge, massive and the worst thing ever. Yes it is an issue, but put it in perspective rather than splash it on the front page week after week like it will be the complete downfall of this country if not stopped completely and immediately. We have more important issues, like providing decent healthcare to our elderly, but when was the last time healthcare for the elderly got as much media attention?


Misinformation, misdirection! Heck, even our government does it too. What is the REAL unemployment rate? We are all being kept in the dark, fed bullshit and we are expected to use that and know what is best for our country.

I don't think Australia is going to shit, but I think our media did so, long ago, and has a lot to answer for. The media sways peoples views and politicians react to that, cause they want to get voted back in. If the media reported the facts, then politicians could react to what is important, not what Mr Murdoch etc want them to. We are being manipulated en-masse, and not necessarily by the politicians as they are caught in this whirlpool too!

ameerat42
17-07-2013, 7:40am
Agreed. Media has become the paragon of public perception. Ironically, it was probably not intended, and I guess may have come about from
the rise in available information in the "modern age". I suspect it was a slow drift from information handlers to information arbiters. Now that it's
the status quo - and has power attached - who could dislodge it? Maybe nobody as such, but to be ever vigilant and discriminating is a great help.

The repercussions of this state leave a lot to desire. Politics has increasingly tended towards a reaction to public perception, itself held hostage to
the perception of the latest trends. There's "kudos" (apologies for debasing this word) to be gained by parading as a guru of the immediate - take
the rise of Twitter as an instance. There is so much energy expended for such little worth.

Now, back to the direction of the country and the world. So, after a period of universal bombardment with at best useless information from all corners of society,
people begin to react to some growing perception, and, unable to manage it all, begin to believe in the worse. Politics and politicians is one of the first things grasped on
to blame, and so political change is called for only on that basis. Of course, they could be to "blame", but discerning just how is usually out of the question. And soon
there is no time to even try. The bandwagon has started rolling and we must all rush out to jump on it. So another political episode begins. We call it a "revolution" and
ascribe lots of significant changes to it. These eventually get whittled away by policy reversals/failures/non-starters, and seeds of discontent are watered...

And (excuse me but) back to MY theme: what's to change?

A possible answer: large notes, I mean, what if someone asks, "Brother, can you spare a dime?" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F4yT0KAMyo)
And nothing much else really, except maybe less loud lamenting and less howling out of "conventional" wisdon.

arthurking83
17-07-2013, 8:26am
Errr... I dunno, if it's not climate change, then it's continental drift. Either way us Melbournians are going to be screwed because we're headed north(by 7cm/year) and I don't like it one bit at all to be honest.

I just hope that I don't live to the ripe old age of 25 million years old, as at this point in time, Melbourne will(theoretically at least) be positioned close to where the Gold Coast is right now.

So we either have to live with the prospect that our weather is about to go all humid and crappy due to climate change soon .. or that it'll get all humid and cruddy due to us pushing our way up to the Goldie(as just about every elderly Greek person has tried to do over the past 50 odd years anyhow!)

That means that William is basically about to lose all sense of reasons to get up(early) in the morning .. we'll need to allocate someone as his replacement from here in Melbourne(or Bill will need to asses the need to move 'down south').. I ain't such an early type, nor one that sees pleasure at the seaside(much).

No rush tho .. remember we have about 25 million years to plan for this eventuality.


But I still donlikeit
(the way our country is headed!)

As our country is a continent, I hoping that no one is offended by my referral to country and continent as one?

I'd prefer if it were more like 7cm/year to the south. My folks abandoned the north to come to Australia because it wasn't as nice a place as it was here in the south ... and I fully concur, and had hoped for a long and fruitful life here in the south.
And so it seems that I'm being forced back northwards(under duress I must admit) .. and there is only a limited distance that one could be expected to travel by foot, and I've forgotten my Jesus sandals to boot!(so expect very little in the way of aquatic bipodal endeavours)
So it seems there is currently no option other than to accept the direction of travel of the landmass ... unless you like boats and/or rocky featureless plains and latitudes south of Hobart .... Antarctica sounds politically quite ATM ;)

Nup! don't like it, never have(ever since I became aware of it all) .. and usually we just have to live with it, until the next round of movements are made. Expect no change beyond that as well!

mpb
17-07-2013, 8:39am
You prefer south? We will end up in Antarctica and freeze to death.

I am all for north.

With respect to some of the other comments on our Country, which do not seem to have anything to do which way it is headed, I will just say that the grass is pretty green here compared to most other places.

In fact the grass is way over saturated compared to the black and white qualities of the grass in other places.

Kym
17-07-2013, 8:59am
I am afraid I have become very disillusioned with our political system and the people who are "running" our country. We are supposed to have a democratic society, but isn't that supposed to mean "one man one vote". Unfortunately, that is not how it works. If you look at how the electorates are carved up, you can have a very small electorate with a few thousand people and that is one seat and you can have another huge electorate with many thousands of people and that is also one seat.

Not true! The AEC redistributes boundaries so that each seat has approximately the same number of electors. This is also true for state elections.

The only difference is the senate, where Tasmania has the same number of senators as NSW.
This is due to how Australia was formed from the colonies.

jerrab
17-07-2013, 9:16am
Thank you Kaiser for raising really important issues. They're just as important to photographers as anyone else, since we expose the world we reflect. It was Cartier-Bresson who said his pictures were an interface between the world and what he thought about it. While it's easy to say that things have never been different because fundamentally people's behaviour is the same, things have changed quite a lot. Society has changed heaps, and we're now confronted with huge global issues such as climate change, energy and water problems, millions of people being fleeing their countries, etc. At the same time, the system is much more monopolised (like the media), controlled and manipulated so that we're encouraged to view these problems through a narrower prism than ever before, a prism that is entirely in hock to powerful vested interests. Our problems require a new global approach, but instead countries are spending more than ever before on 'defence', which is not a preparation to resolve these issues peacefully. The planet will survive, but we may have real difficulties unless things change. If we leave it up to the politicians, they won't. So we need to get involved some how - at any level - because if we don't, our lack of action leaves the floor open to the people who are protecting their 'interests'.

kaiser
17-07-2013, 9:50am
Errr... I dunno, if it's not climate change, then it's continental drift. Either way us Melbournians are going to be screwed because we're headed north(by 7cm/year) and I don't like it one bit at all to be honest.

I just hope that I don't live to the ripe old age of 25 million years old, as at this point in time, Melbourne will(theoretically at least) be positioned close to where the Gold Coast is right now.

So we either have to live with the prospect that our weather is about to go all humid and crappy due to climate change soon .. or that it'll get all humid and cruddy due to us pushing our way up to the Goldie(as just about every elderly Greek person has tried to do over the past 50 odd years anyhow!)

That means that William is basically about to lose all sense of reasons to get up(early) in the morning .. we'll need to allocate someone as his replacement from here in Melbourne(or Bill will need to asses the need to move 'down south').. I ain't such an early type, nor one that sees pleasure at the seaside(much).

No rush tho .. remember we have about 25 million years to plan for this eventuality.


But I still donlikeit
(the way our country is headed!)

As our country is a continent, I hoping that no one is offended by my referral to country and continent as one?

I'd prefer if it were more like 7cm/year to the south. My folks abandoned the north to come to Australia because it wasn't as nice a place as it was here in the south ... and I fully concur, and had hoped for a long and fruitful life here in the south.
And so it seems that I'm being forced back northwards(under duress I must admit) .. and there is only a limited distance that one could be expected to travel by foot, and I've forgotten my Jesus sandals to boot!(so expect very little in the way of aquatic bipodal endeavours)
So it seems there is currently no option other than to accept the direction of travel of the landmass ... unless you like boats and/or rocky featureless plains and latitudes south of Hobart .... Antarctica sounds politically quite ATM ;)

Nup! don't like it, never have(ever since I became aware of it all) .. and usually we just have to live with it, until the next round of movements are made. Expect no change beyond that as well!

I don't mind if Melbourne finds its way into Queensland. Atleast then we will have some decent baristas who know how to make a real coffee :)

geoffsta
17-07-2013, 4:05pm
Personally I'm thinking if Rudd gets back in. I'll hire a boat in Darwin. Go out about 20 miles or so. Then ring the Indonesian navy to come and pick me up.

Greed, greed, greed. And after that they want to suck more money out of us. With many businesses now, production costs are outweighing income, forcing them broke.
Minority are winning over majority. And those who bust a foofer valve to get somewhere in life are getting shafted, and those sitting around bludging on the rest of us are living well.

Words are words, and that's all they are.... Action is what we need.

ricktas
17-07-2013, 5:41pm
Personally I'm thinking if Rudd gets back in. I'll hire a boat in Darwin. Go out about 20 miles or so. Then ring the Indonesian navy to come and pick me up.



I could be picking you up. I might move to Indonesia and start a shonky boat building business. good money to be made right there.:D

MattNQ
17-07-2013, 6:42pm
It's funny. I was chatting to a work colleague today & he put forward a few ideas- why don't we allow the boat people to stay...under the condition that they are bound to work for x years ..eg. labouring - roads, rail, footpaths, weed management etc - working on essential community infrastructure in exchange for a basic (ie liveable) wage and accommodation provided for them and their family. Preferably in regional areas where the communities are doing it tough. At the end of x years, they are offered a block of land for a minimal sum in the regional area where they have been working.....

Now I'm not saying that this idea is the perfect solution, but why aren't we seeing more constructive and creative ideas like that from our esteemed leaders???

ameerat42
17-07-2013, 7:31pm
"ricktas thanked for this useful post"
And so did Am.

Mark L
17-07-2013, 7:36pm
It's funny. I was chatting to a work colleague today & he put forward a few ideas- why don't we allow the boat people to stay...under the condition that they are bound to work for x years ..eg. labouring - roads, rail, footpaths, weed management etc - working on essential community infrastructure in exchange for a basic (ie liveable) wage and accommodation provided for them and their family. Preferably in regional areas where the communities are doing it tough. At the end of x years, they are offered a block of land for a minimal sum in the regional area where they have been working.....

Now I'm not saying that this idea is the perfect solution, but why aren't we seeing more constructive and creative ideas like that from our esteemed leaders???

Possibly 'cause "stop the boats" wins votes.:(Don't matter that more people wanting asylum here come by plane.)
N.D.I.S, N.B.N., plain packaging of cigarettes, attempts at a viable Murray-darling basin plan, education reform, aged pensions have increased. mmmm

arthurking83
17-07-2013, 8:08pm
..... At least then we will have some decent baristas who know how to make a real coffee :)

LOL! baristas in Queensland???? seriously ... I thought they only knew Nescafe up their way.

I suppose it wouldn't be all bad if Melb end up in Qld ... notwithstanding the lack of quality baristas .. we could grow our own coffee beans too boot :th3:

That is .. not grow coffee beans to boot(them) .. I meant grow coffee beans ... as well! It seems wasteful too boot a newly grown coffee bean before you torture it in a hell for a few hours, run it through a grinder, and finally drown it with pressurized steam before finally discarding with all other refuse.


Ah! Australia is going down the gurgler I reckon .. we need heaps more baristas(in Melb at least) .. we need to stop booting coffee beans for no reason(no! hangon I mentioned that .. that's my fault, oops) .. we need to maintain a more fair and equitable political situation, and for that I reckon we need one political representative for each eligible voting Australian for each of the upper and lower houses. And the rep with the most obscure photography lens becomes the leader of the parliament for a week, thereafter nominating his or her favourite opponent during that week as successor.
bring back Queensland old gerrymander system I reckon. Give me a voice in a circus I have no idea about .. I'm sure I'll figure out a way do something with it, which is a lot more than the current incompetents have done for the past how many years! :rolleyes:

I'm with Geoff ... we need action!
and if we get action, and then get some lights to go with all that action, all we then need is a camera .. and, yay! We'll have everything ... lights, camera .... action!

old4570
17-07-2013, 9:13pm
In the last 30 to 40 years , neither Government has done next to nothing to address the issue of the boat people ..

From a perspective human rights , Que jumping , illegal entry , human trafficking , etc .

Boat people have been nothing less or more than a political football ..

The actual issue of stopping the boats has never been addressed ... And in all honesty , I dont know that either party wants to stop them ..

Here is my solution ( to stop illegal entry , people risking their lives , put a stop to human trafficking )

As soon as we intercept a boat :

A/ We identify all individuals , anyone not identified goes to prison till they are ..
B/ Once identified , individuals are seen to - medical needs etc
c/ Once individuals are cleared ( not criminals etc ) they are put on a plane and sent home .. ( No exceptions )
D/ Anyone eligible for refugee status is given a form to submit at an Australian embassy in there home country ...
E/ If we send them home when they try to Que jump , the boats will stop !

The solution is simple - We dont accept Que jumpers !
We dont hold them in detention centers
We dont deprive them of their human rights
We dont deprive them of the right to ask for asylum
We only stop them from Que jumping
We send them home for free

We can still accept refugees , but not Que jumpers , we send them home ! No questions asked and no exceptions ...
We treat them the same as Tourists that have overstayed .. We send them home ...

Do we want to save lives , stop human trafficking , stop the boats ?

Or do we just want to talk about it , and not really deal with the issue in a fashion that will actually end the problem ? :confused013

40 years , and the boats still come , seriously ! 40 years !

Are politicians really that stupid ?

Dont answer that !

ROA44
18-07-2013, 9:07am
Not necessarily my point of view, but thought it expressed well a lot of peoples thoughts at the moment with politics and politicians and thought a lot of you might enjoy even from a performance aspect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WSIUf2hD6Io

Steve Axford
18-07-2013, 1:37pm
Perhaps it's a sign of national adolescence that we are most inclined to rubbish ourselves. The USA or UK or Germany or most other older countries don't do that, even though they are worse than Oz in so many respects. As they say on the footy show (any code will do), we need to take a good hard look at ourselves and at the same time take a good hard look at other countries. I think we will find that we come out quite well in comparison. At the same time we need to take a good hard look at history and I think we will also find that we are generally better than we were before - there are ups and downs of course, but generally it has been up. Sure, we do have problems, but we can solve them, if we try. Then there will be a new set of problems which we will also have to solve. That's life, isn't it? No point complaining when the answer is in ourselves.

crazymorton
18-07-2013, 3:46pm
^ what Steve said.

some people are just to pessimistic. we have a great country let's celebrate it's greatness.

cupic
18-07-2013, 10:09pm
Our country Oz is still the great country BUT its slowly down down the toilet
From both sides of Politics and outside influences

Duane Pipe
28-07-2013, 5:31pm
Personally I'm thinking if Rudd gets back in. I'll hire a boat in Darwin. Go out about 20 miles or so. Then ring the Indonesian navy to come and pick me up.

Greed, greed, greed. And after that they want to suck more money out of us. With many businesses now, production costs are outweighing income, forcing them broke.
Minority are winning over majority. And those who bust a foofer valve to get somewhere in life are getting shafted, and those sitting around bludging on the rest of us are living well.

Words are words, and that's all they are.... Action is what we need.

Not me Geoff. Although sometimes I feel guilty being unemployed and a burden to mum and dad but thats not my choice.
I cant believe how the Latrobe Valley has changed in the last 10 years. A few major Construction contractors have gone under in the last few and the region has way out grown the employment opportunities.
I have never In my life needed a job network provider to find work. But now after 3 years with their help I am still unemployed.
I could move away.

There has been a influx of sudanese in this region and they seem to be driving very nice cars:(
My best mates uncle owns a local car yard and has apparently seen vouchers from Centrelink of up-to the value of $30.000 for a new car:eek: I hope that's not true.... I am not being Racist but they are taking our jobs and our money. Money that could see our homeless sheltered:confused013 I have found bush shelters in the local parks while shooting birds..

Steve Axford
28-07-2013, 8:22pm
Best mate's uncles who own car yards are possibly not the finest of witnesses, Duane. We tend to believe what agrees with our beliefs. The trick is learning to question everything, even those things that fit so perfectly with what we believe. For myself, the Sudanese seem like good people, though like all people some will be less than perfect. I am certainly glad that I was not born in Sudan and I do not begrudge them a chance to live a life without others trying to kill them.

Duane Pipe
29-07-2013, 4:08pm
They have beautiful smiles Steve and I don't have a problem with them either. I was just saying that our region could do without the population growth, There is no work here to support us. Moe, Morwell and Traralgon have a population of 75,000 with 4575 unemployed:(, Me pushing 50 with injuries have no chance.....

Steve Axford
29-07-2013, 5:26pm
I can understand how you feel, Duane, but perhaps you shouldn't write as if you did have a problem. You may give the wrong impression to those who read what you say.

Mathy
30-07-2013, 1:53am
In the last 30 to 40 years , neither Government has done next to nothing to address the issue of the boat people ..

Not quite right, the problem today is very different to the problem faced 30 years ago.


From a perspective human rights , Que jumping , illegal entry , human trafficking , etc .

QUE is spelt Queue


Boat people have been nothing less or more than a political football ..

True


The actual issue of stopping the boats has never been addressed ... And in all honesty , I dont know that either party wants to stop them ..

Wrong, John Howard and Co were obsessed with stopping them and did achieve a reduction in boat arrivals.


As soon as we intercept a boat :

A/ We identify all individuals , anyone not identified goes to prison till they are ..
B/ Once identified , individuals are seen to - medical needs etc
c/ Once individuals are cleared ( not criminals etc ) they are put on a plane and sent home .. ( No exceptions )
D/ Anyone eligible for refugee status is given a form to submit at an Australian embassy in there home country ...
E/ If we send them home when they try to Que jump , the boats will stop !

A/ Many genuine refugees do not have identity documents, not everyone comes from an orderly and well documented society such as ours.
B/ Good
C/ I protest, we should send the criminals back as well - no exceptions.
D/ Many countries from which asylum seekers originate from do NOT have an Australian Embassy, that's part of the problem.
E/ Without a place to submit a form to ask to emigrate to OZ, there cannot be queue jumpers as there is no queue.



We can still accept refugees , but not Que jumpers , we send them home ! No questions asked and no exceptions ...
We treat them the same as Tourists that have overstayed .. We send them home ...

We are pathetic at sending people home who have overstayed their visas, I seriously doubt we'd be any better at it under this system.


Do we want to save lives , stop human trafficking , stop the boats ?

Yes!


Or do we just want to talk about it , and not really deal with the issue in a fashion that will actually end the problem ? :confused013

40 years , and the boats still come , seriously ! 40 years !

I don't remember there being so much angst about Vietnamese refugees 40 years ago. I feel our politicians and population had a much more compassionate and educated opinion about the issue then. Adelaide has quite a large Vietnamese community with a refugee heritage. They are immensely productive small business owners, and we all enjoy their wonderful cuisine, the same goes for Italians and Greeks, if you want to go further back in time. The problem now is that the media choose to treat the issue as something that we should be frightened about, individuals who can make money out of other people's misery are having a field day, the politicians are using it as a political football because the media have wound up the voters and the voters need a good lesson in geopolitics and critical thinking, in the hope that they will stop believing everything they read in the Murdoch press or hear from the shock jocks on talkback radio.


Are politicians really that stupid ?

It's not about politicians being stupid. It's about them retaining their power base, and if the media winds the voters up about these differently coloured, differently religious and culturally different people, then the politicians will spend their time resolving THEIR problem by demonising said people. That is what I find offensive. Probably the issue that the media are using as a scare tactic is that so many of these asylum seekers are from a Muslim background. I believe that freedom of religion is important (I'm not at all religious), I also believe that if you want to live by Sharia Law, then you better choose to emigrate to a country that shares your beliefs, because Australia is not going to go there. At the same time, I ask myself 'When did religion start to become so important in this Country as a political issue?' - I put that firmly at the feet of, firstly John Howard, and then Kevin Rudd - that sort of americanisation of our political system, we can do without!

We are known as a very tolerant, generous society and I'm proud of that - after all, unless you are an indigenous Australian, then you are either an immigrant/convict or the descendant of one :D.

We have a proud history of accepting people from different lands and cultures and assimilating them into our society - the real question we should be pondering is 'Why has this changed and why have we allowed that to happen?

cheers Deb

Granville
30-07-2013, 9:20am
I don't remember there being so much angst about Vietnamese refugees 40 years ago.

That's because 40 years ago Vietnamese refugees were genuine refugees. They were being kept in poverty and in fear of their lives from an oppressive communist regime.

I doubt even 5% of the "refugees" coming over on boats are escaping being oppressed, in fear of their lives, and kept in poverty.

I will support the acceptance and rehabilitation in Australia of genuine refugees any time they need it, but they need to be refugees, not people who claim to be but have the money in the first place to pay the people smugglers to get them in the back door.

ricktas
30-07-2013, 9:49am
Australia accepted 3% of the world's refugees in 2012. Yet we are 25million strong in a world of 7 Billion. I think we are trying to be the 'good world citizen' to our own detriment at times

ameerat42
30-07-2013, 10:01am
Mathy. Has anyone thanked you for your useful post?
Well, let me be the 1st.
Am (thanked for this useful post).

ricktas
30-07-2013, 10:21am
200 years ago, we were all boat people:rolleyes:

blkmcs
30-07-2013, 10:23am
Australia accepted 3% of the world's refugees in 2012. Yet we are 25million strong in a world of 7 Billion. I think we are trying to be the 'good world citizen' to our own detriment at times
Can you quote the source of this 3% and can you clarify what you mean by "accepted"?
Refugees in camps are not the same as refugees resettled, perhaps you mean the total intake.

http://www.factsfightback.org.au/does-australia-take-the-most-refugees-check-the-facts/
The UNHCR Global Trends Report 2010 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdElSazg4bE04MWlFVURmQW10TDVneHc&hl=en_US#gid=11) shows that Australia took one refugee per 1, 000 population and ranked 69th in the world for per capita refugee intake. 2012 UNHCR figures (http://popstats.unhcr.org/PSQ_POC.aspx) for absolute refugee intake show that Australia took nearly 30,000 refugees and ranked 49th in the world.


Mathy. Has anyone thanked you for your useful post?
Well, let me be the 1st.
Am (thanked for this useful post).
I'll second that.

ricktas
30-07-2013, 10:34am
the 3% was stated by a politician last week on an ABC tv show. I cannot recall the show right now.

I also think the refugee issue is being blown out of proportion. I reckon the debt of over $25,000 per Australian that our government has racked up is more important. We pay around $11B a year in interest on it. That $11B would build some nice hospitals in each capital city. They (politicians) keep commenting on how low our debt level is compared to other countries, which it is, but it is still not sustainable and someday in the future we have to pay it back. I have asked directly, several Labor politicians what their policy on repaying the debt is, and no-one has provided an answer. They simple state our debt levels are low compared to other countries. If I borrow money I need a plan of repayment, if a business borrows money they need a plan to repay it, if a corporation borrows money they need a plan to repay it.. If our government borrows money, they don't seem to have a plan to repay it

Analog6
30-07-2013, 11:43am
That's because 40 years ago Vietnamese refugees were genuine refugees. They were being kept in poverty and in fear of their lives from an oppressive communist regime.

I doubt even 5% of the "refugees" coming over on boats are escaping being oppressed, in fear of their lives, and kept in poverty.

I will support the acceptance and rehabilitation in Australia of genuine refugees any time they need it, but they need to be refugees, not people who claim to be but have the money in the first place to pay the people smugglers to get them in the back door.

So you doubt they are genuine refugees. Here are some references that refute this:

Not economic refugees - a year 9 girl's story (http://www.smh.com.au/comment/stolen-childhoods-overlooked-amid-toll-of-war-and-famine-20130729-2quvo.html) of their plight
"according to the government's own statistics, more than 90 per cent of asylum seekers arriving by boat in recent years have been genuine refugees, seeking real protection" full article (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/set-up-a-protection-racket-20130728-2qsml.html)
Refugees are people like us (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/refugees-are-people-like-us-20130729-2qurh.html)
Malcolm Fraser's comments (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/vietnamese-refugees-were-a-boon-not-a-burden-20130728-2qsh4.html) on how the problem might be solved - actual useful advice for a change, rather than Abbott & Rudd demonisation

(Most of these are from the SMH simply because it is my most read paper and reflects, to a large extent, my opinions.)

Sadly, our notion of 'a Fair Go' has gone. What has happened to our nation - built on immigration and helping the vulnerable? The place where everyone could get a fair go no longer exists. Our collective heartlessness makes me very ashamed to call myself an Aussie - something I never thought I would say.

We are coming across to the world as cruel, heartless and merciless - a nation of sybarites only concerned with keeping what we have for ourselves. Our 'quality of mercy' isn't strained - it seems to me to be very finely sieved indeed.

Steve Axford
30-07-2013, 2:07pm
the 3% was stated by a politician last week on an ABC tv show. I cannot recall the show right now.


Isn't it interesting that a politician would make such a claim, when it is blatantly untrue. I guess he or she relies on the fact that very few people will ever check what they say and even if they say "oh, I made a mistake" the next day, most will remember the first lie and not notice the retraction. According to the UNHCR we take 0.2% of refugees compared with Canada which takes 1.6%, Germany 6.0% and Iran which has 10%.
I do agree with you when you say the issue is being blown out of all proportion, but I don't think we can just blame our pollies or our media for this. We also need to look at ourselves and ask if we could perhaps help a little more than we do and stop panicking about boat people. They are a minute trickle compared to what we would get if we had a land border with, say, Syria.

ricktas
30-07-2013, 6:57pm
This thread has gotten some interest from outside the site. I have been contacted by the ABC regarding our discussion here. One of the things they asked was if I would link to an article on their site. So I am obliging them:

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/sundayextra/4850964

Steve Axford
30-07-2013, 7:30pm
That is a very unusual thing for the ABC to do. Are you sure of that?

ricktas
30-07-2013, 8:12pm
That is a very unusual thing for the ABC to do. Are you sure of that?

thanks for insinuating that I am a liar, appreciate it Steve.! You like to have a go at me if you get the chance, so if you dislike me that much, I suggest you go join another site!


The following message was sent to you via the AusPhotography:: Australia's Premier Photography Forum:: Contact Us form by Andrew Davies ( mailto:XXX@abc.net.au ).

--------------------------------

Hello,

I’m an Online Producer with ABC Radio National.

The reason for the email is that I thought this article on our site (on the power of asylum seeker images) maybe of possible interest for Australian Photography and your broader networks.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/sundayextra/4850964

When we have articles that we think maybe of interest for relevant people and groups, we like to let them know.

Regards,
Andrew

--------------------------------

Referring Page:
IP Address: 203.2.218.145
User Name: Unregistered
User ID: 0
Email: XXX@abc.net.au

Steve Axford
30-07-2013, 9:07pm
The text of the email does explain it.
I hadn't realized I was accusing you of lying. I thought I was questioning the ABC email rather than you. My apologies if I offended you.

Duane Pipe
03-08-2013, 6:21pm
A fair go!!!! It seems they can find housing for the immigrants while our homeless are on a waiting lists. Go figure.

Analog6
04-08-2013, 7:01am
A fair go!!!! It seems they can find housing for the immigrants while our homeless are on a waiting lists. Go figure.

Many of our homeless would baulk at living in the conditions the refugees live in. Some of those released into the community have houses, true, paid for by refugee & religious/social help organisations, but in many cases it's mattresses on the floor and boxes to sit on. Or in the camps tents seem to be de riguer. And many homeless folk, while they would like a bed for the night, resist being placed in 'fixed' housing - not all, but a lot of them.

Homeless people and refugees are 2 totally different things and departments, groups etc. A comparison is more apples and onions than apples and oranges.

The whole demonisation of refugess, over 97% of whom were found to be genuine in the last batch processed, is a wicked political ploy by BOTH parties for their own ends. On the processing side, the l;ast batch processed was a couple of years ago now, I read in the media (somewhere) that our government is so busy being cruel and scoring points that they have STOPPED processing refugess applications, quite contrary to the Refugee Agreement we are party to as a nation.

It's all just shameful.

ricktas
04-08-2013, 7:33am
Perhaps we need to get out of the idea that Australia is ours:


http://vimeo.com/66742271/download?t=1375565532&v=166265336&

kaiser
04-08-2013, 2:34pm
So the last couple of pages of discussion has been dominated by the above topic- is this because people have very strong views on it or that it has just been saturated into us through media? My guess is a little of both.
For the sake of clarity we shouldn't use the term asylum seeker and refugee and immigrant interchangibly, as their govt support/benefits are somewhat different:

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/98services.htm


"The Humanitarian Settlement Services (HSS) program provides early practical support to refugees and other humanitarian entrants on arrival, and throughout their initial settlement period. HSS providers work with clients to assess and identify their needs and deliver a tailored package of services to meet those needs. Not all clients will require or receive all services available under the HSS program. The department expects that most HSS clients will have reached their initial settlement outcomes within 6–12 months after arrival.

Services provided under the HSS program could include meeting clients when they arrive, help finding suitable accommodation, initial orientation and a package of basic household goods such as simple furnishings, linen, some white goods and kitchen equipment. HSS clients may also be assisted to register with Centrelink, Medicare, health services, banking and schools. The HSS program also features an onshore orientation program to assist clients understand Australian society, laws and culture.

Refugees and other humanitarian entrants may also be referred to migrant resource centres and organisations funded under the Settlement Grants Program (SGP). These programs help newly arrived refugees become self-reliant and participate in the Australian community as soon as possible. In addition, Complex Case Support (CCS) delivers specialised and intensive case management services to refugees and other humanitarian entrants whose needs extend beyond the scope of the HSS program and SGP."

And this...


"Asylum seekers in Australia are not eligible to receive financial assistance through Centrelink. In response to the needs of asylum seekers, the Asylum Seekers Assistance Scheme (ASAS) was created in 1992 by the Australian Government to address Australia's obligations under the United Nations 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees.
See: Fact Sheet 62 – Assistance for Asylum Seekers in Australia

More recently, in 2009 after the success of the Community Care Pilot, the department established the Community Assistance Support (CAS) Program to provide health and welfare assistance to highly vulnerable clients while they are actively progressing and resolving their immigration status. Clients are required to hold a Bridging visa that is in effect and must meet specific vulnerability criteria. The services under CAS include access to a departmental case manager as well as support through contracted service providers.
See: Fact Sheet 64 – Community Assistance Support

Asylum seekers who are found to be owed protection are granted protection visas under the Humanitarian Program and are generally eligible for the same services as other newly arrived refugees.

From 1 July 2012, humanitarian clients who arrived as an Irregular Maritime Arrival (IMA) and formerly held a Bridging visa E for greater than 6 months are not eligible for all services under the HSS program."

I also beleive this issue has been used as a political tool and distraction for too long.

It all boils down to the fact that we are just another species living on this planet and we will do what we have to do to try and ensure our survival. As resources and farmable land decline and populations increase- people are obviously going to migrate to survive. We are a sizeable land mass with a tiny (in comparison) population, a weak government and a generally weak population- made lazy and soft by our "advancement" in technology. Full of sooks and whingers and armchair experts but few prepared to do the hard work. Down the track when things get a bit more frantic I think our ability to 'stop' anything would be a proverbial "p!$$ in the wind".

I'm all for accepting asylum seekers and refugees- if they genuinely intend to contribute to society by seeking employment (if fit to do so) and that they have regard to our laws that relate to basic decency (theft, rape, assault, murder etc). I hesitated to write "respect all our laws" because there are a lot of laws we have that defy logic or common sense :confused013

Our prisons are already full- and as pointed out- those residents in prison are already treated better than our aging population in nursing homes.

...and yes, there are a lot of Australians who do not seek employment or abide by laws of common decency too.

When I think of all these full prisons- I see a lot of potential free labour being wasted. Surely hard, manual labour all day is a better punishment than what's currently in place. Bring back the chain gangs- I dont think anyone would object to having roadworks and other public works completed quicker and for less taxpayer money.

Steve Axford
06-08-2013, 5:05pm
The only country I have seen chain gangs in is Myanmar, in 2000. I guess the Myanmar junta did not care what people thought of them then, but I bet they don't have chain gangs now. It does not create a good impression.

WhoDo
08-08-2013, 12:38pm
It does not create a good impression.

Typical Form vs. Function argument. Who cares what "impression" is created (Form) if the fear of hard labour (something most criminals assiduously avoid) cuts the number of prisoners and the work they do contributes to the society (Function) they have tried to abuse in some way or other?

True, the name "chain gang" evokes images of America's dusty roads with prisoners chained together in the 100+F heat, etc. The fact is that building infrastructure is expensive to the point that much of it is now crumbling into ruin. Why not tap that lazy labour of our prisons to have convicts give something back to society other than laundered sheets and towels? Heck, they don't even make licence plates these days!

Allowing prisoners to sit on the butts all day watching TV running on State-provided electricity, wearing State-provided clothing and eating State-provided food while whinging about State-provided amenities is a total waste of resources on those who don't deserve them, IMHO. If prisons are unpleasant places it's likely because the population have nothing better to do while they're on holiday at our expense!

Duane Pipe
08-08-2013, 5:48pm
I think Prisoners have access to foxtel too Waz, They should be treated like they were a century ago:action: Give them a good flogging... I purchased a house in government housing area and what a disgrace our own people leave them in. They would burn the fence palings in 44g drums in the front yard while drinking grog. I would hate to see the interior and would rather see people more deserving in them. I know where the Sudanese refugees are housed and they to look after what they have.

We have lost 10000 permanent jobs in the last month:eek: We can't keep going like this! I would put the unemployed to work in government ran factories with a roster of 1 week on 1 week off, that way its not slave labour and we could produce a few cheap products for export and cheaper Australian made goods.

Would that help with our economy :confused013

- - - Updated - - -

Another thought. God help me lol... I have not seen a refugee at work in my community since when they were first settled and took the white mans jobs as Trolly pushers in our local plaza, since then I have not seen any employed.. No shit! They walk the streets the same as our unemployed and seem to drive Vehicles that are out of our unemployed's reach. The government talks shit Kaiser..

Steve Axford
08-08-2013, 6:07pm
Typical Form vs. Function argument. Who cares what "impression" is created (Form) if the fear of hard labour (something most criminals assiduously avoid) cuts the number of prisoners and the work they do contributes to the society (Function) they have tried to abuse in some way or other?

True, the name "chain gang" evokes images of America's dusty roads with prisoners chained together in the 100+F heat, etc. The fact is that building infrastructure is expensive to the point that much of it is now crumbling into ruin. Why not tap that lazy labour of our prisons to have convicts give something back to society other than laundered sheets and towels? Heck, they don't even make licence plates these days!

Allowing prisoners to sit on the butts all day watching TV running on State-provided electricity, wearing State-provided clothing and eating State-provided food while whinging about State-provided amenities is a total waste of resources on those who don't deserve them, IMHO. If prisons are unpleasant places it's likely because the population have nothing better to do while they're on holiday at our expense!

I think you will find that most people do care about the impression they create, particularly our politicians, who would have to pass the laws for chain gangs.
Next is the idea that cheap unskilled labour would make building our roads cheap. Have you researched what it takes to build a major road? Prison labour isn't going to make it cheaper.

kaiser
08-08-2013, 7:12pm
I think you will find that most people do care about the impression they create, particularly our politicians, who would have to pass the laws for chain gangs.
Next is the idea that cheap unskilled labour would make building our roads cheap. Have you researched what it takes to build a major road? Prison labour isn't going to make it cheaper.

Too many bleeding hearts and people worried about what is the "politically correct" way to do things. If only we could live in the Utopia where everyone holds hands and gets along. The only reason today's politicians care about the impression they create- is because they are worried about their own position of power and healthy income.

The forced labor could be implemented in a way that still upheld basic human rights, it doesnt have to automatically have people thinking that we've reverted back to slavery. Perhaps prisoners may even volunteer for roles. Shockingly too- maybe some of them have a trade background or laboring skills? How about other essential tasks like clearing rubbish, mowing, shovelling, sweeping, hosing, removing grafitti etc etc.

Such a system has its problems with logistics, security etc which would need to be worked through.
However even if the idea is just a thought- i'll stand on that side of the fence any day as opposed to losing sleep about how others may perceive me.
Perhaps if judges consistently followed through with tougher sentencing instead of worrying about setting precedents that would upset the bleeding hearts, we might have more of a deterrent. How frustrating it must be for our police to do all the legwork on cases only to have a sentence watered down or an offender get off on some ridiculous technicality of our antiquated law.

It also doesnt help that we've become so obsessed with being PC and to be seen as doing the right thing- that criminals rights sometimes overshadow the victims of the crime.

Society has become so worried about being PC that its watered down our Justice system.

Mark L
08-08-2013, 8:01pm
.......
The forced labor could be implemented in a way that still upheld basic human rights, ..........

And then there'd probably be more (inadequate) benefits having to be paid out to more unemployed people. If the works there to be done, pay people to do it.
But then I forgot, those on the dole don't want to work!:rolleyes:

WhoDo
09-08-2013, 10:00am
I think you will find that most people do care about the impression they create, particularly our politicians, who would have to pass the laws for chain gangs.

Peer pressure is a terrible thing, isn't it? What ever happened to people being willing to take the unpopular position if they strongly believed it was the right one?


Next is the idea that cheap unskilled labour would make building our roads cheap. Have you researched what it takes to build a major road? Prison labour isn't going to make it cheaper.

It doesn't have to be road building. What about road maintenance? How many country roads in particular are potholed beyond recognition as roads? There must be a way to get some return on the enormous expense of feeding, clothing, housing and entertaining criminals, surely?


And then there'd probably be more (inadequate) benefits having to be paid out to more unemployed people. If the works there to be done, pay people to do it.
But then I forgot, those on the dole don't want to work!:rolleyes:

I used to supervise a scheme that was loosely termed "Work for the Dole". We would take outdated computer systems, rebuild or repair them, load free (Linux) software on them and donate them to charity. Some of the early refugee programs were also recipients of those donations. I was conscious that it was important for the self esteem of the participants that they NOT be seen as cheap slave labour. For that reason every participant was given the opportunity to build a PC for their own use, so they could search and apply for jobs using the Internet. They were also taught valuable skills in computer maintenance and repair, which were in short supply at the time, so helping to equip them for the job market.

We treated the work environment as a sort of "commune", too. We would buy cheap drinks for participants to purchase during their day at significantly reduced prices, all the while accumulating a small profit from those purchases to be used to supply a "free" BBQ meal for them every Friday. No-one was excluded, regardless of whether or not they purchased drinks, too.

Where is that program now? Beats me. The organisation I worked for held 50% of all WfD funding in the Hunter, but lost ALL of its contracts at the 2007 funding round. I haven't seen a single WfD program in operation since! The chief complaint (from those "bleeding hearts" no doubt) was that it made participants feel they were being "used" as unpaid labour and sapped their self-esteem. I wonder if they bothered to ask the participants who successfully graduated from the program, rather than the whiners who didn't want to work for their dole payments?

Bottom line: It doesn't matter whether we are discussing people who are genuinely out of work or prisoners of the state, we need to STOP WASTING RESOURCES because some PC bleeding heart thinks they know better what is best for humanity! The biggest thing these programs offer is an avenue to self-respect for ALL involved. As for "paying" them to work, aren't we already "paying" them NOT to work? Get rid of the NOT in the system and benefits will flow freely in BOTH directions! JMHO of course.